490. Female Sovereignty with McArthur Krishna

What does it mean to be a sovereign being? What does it mean to operate as one and to fully own your agency? And how do we negatively impact both our day-to-day lives and our relationships and our relationship with divinity if we aren’t fully owning our sovereignty? And how do we teach our children the importance of this as well?

In today’s episode, I have a conversation to share with you where my guests and I are going to dive into this topic. And my hope is that you will use it as a springboard by which to develop your own ideas and your own insight about this topic. This is episode 490, Female Sovereignty with McArthur Krishna.

Welcome to Better Than Happy, the podcast where we transform our lives by transforming ourselves. My name is Jody Moore. In the decade-plus I’ve been working with clients as a Master Certified Coach, I’ve helped tens of thousands of people to become empowered. And from empowered, the things that seemed hard become trivial, and the things that seemed impossible become available, and suddenly, a whole new world of desire and possibility open up to you. And what do you do with that?

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Hello, everybody. Welcome to a very special episode of Better Than Happy. I am very excited to introduce you today to McArthur Krishna, if you’re not familiar with her, and to share with you a very interesting conversation I had with her recently.

McArthur is an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and an author and someone who I met maybe a little over five years ago through the Faith Matters Foundation and have really just learned so much from and enjoyed watching her navigate the space that she feels so passionate about, which is helping to bring useful awareness and tools and insight and help us think a little bit deeper about topics within the culture of our religion and the doctrine of our religion around topics like equality for men and women and feminism and the divine feminine and Heavenly Mother.

And I’ve just had a lot of interesting insights in the handful of conversations I’ve had with McArthur. Recently, she was in town and we went to lunch or dinner, we had a meal. And anyway, she was so fired up about this topic of women becoming sovereign beings. And I said, wait, wait, wait, wait, don’t tell me about it yet. Let’s get the mics out. Let’s press record and let’s talk about it when we can capture it for the podcast because it’s a topic that I feel passionate about as well.

McArthur and I have, of course, our own viewpoints and ideas about it, but I’m very excited to share this conversation with you because it’s something I just want you to think through as well in your own life. I know that it will have relevance whether you are male or female, or you have sons or daughters. It’s just an interesting topic.

And as you know, I’ve sort of been discussing this topic in various ways lately, really wanted to bring MacArthur in on this topic. So please enjoy my conversation with MacArthur Krishna. 

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Jody Moore: All right, MacArthur, thank you for joining me on the podcast today. So happy to have you here.

McArthur Krishna: I am delighted to be here. It is always fun to talk about stuff we’re passionate about.

Jody Moore: Right? And we are passionate today.

McArthur Krishna: And most days.

Jody Moore: And most days, but some days more than others. We’ll just leave it at that. Okay, let’s just begin with introduction. Will you let everybody know who you are, what your work is about, and just give us a brief intro, please.

McArthur Krishna: Yeah. So generally I’m known for writing books. I’ve written and published 20 or so books.

Jody Moore: That’s a lot of books.

McArthur Krishna: You know.

Jody Moore: By the way. You know. I mean, seriously. Anyway, okay. Sorry, continue.

McArthur Krishna: Well and honestly, it sounds a little bit funny, but I was writing some of those books when I was living in India, and I didn’t have access to church. So all of a sudden, I had like three extra hours every Sunday available to me. You can get a lot of writing done when you have three extra hours, right? So, I mean, if anyone wants to write a book, I’m just saying. That’s enough.

Jody Moore: Maybe move to India.

McArthur Krishna: Right. I recommend it.

Jody Moore: Would you mind sharing, because when you and I were together last, you shared with me a little bit about just your experience of being a student at BYU and ending up living in India for a little bit. Are you comfortable sharing that? I just think it’s so fascinating.

McArthur Krishna: So I was part of a clan that was raised on the BYU fight song. And so, like, Saturday mornings, my mom would come into our bedroom and, like, literally sing, rise and shout, it’s time to do your chores. Right? Like, it was, like, it was just baked in to who we were gonna be.

Jody Moore: It was real.

McArthur Krishna: Yeah, exactly. I don’t know when this is going to air, but they’re playing the Ute soon, and we’re just saying we have some loyalty here, right? So that was completely baked in, and at the same time, my mom also said, when you go to BYU, you’ll really find your people, which was both 100% true and 100% not true, as most motherly advice is, now that I’m a mother and I know how we hand that out, right? And it is true that I found incredible women who are my tribe, who are friends to this day, who’ve made me who I am. I mean, like all of the most abundant richness you can imagine with those women.

And it made me realize that being a member of our church actually meant there was way more diversity than what I had realized. That there were almost 30,000 people who go to BYU, and we didn’t all agree. We didn’t all agree on everything that was being talked about and everything that was being put forward. And instead of that being something to kind of mourn or feel nervous about, that that was really truly something to celebrate. That I really think that there’s richness in weaving together different perspectives.

And so, yeah, there’s a whole bunch of people I found who are “not my tribe,” right? And at the same time, I’ve always loved how you discuss that we’re the body of Christ and that we make up the church and that you and I can’t say to a foot, I have no need of thee. Right? 

And so having a really wide perspective is what made me realize that even within my own faith, even among a very narrow, you’d think kind of a narrow demographic of a certain age, mostly white, mostly US, those sorts of very narrow demographics, there’s actually a really wide angle on the world. And after graduation, I was not married, much to my mother’s poke in her plan, right? That like, I popped that bubble.

Jody Moore: What? What went wrong?

McArthur Krishna: This was the plan, right?

Jody Moore: That’s why you go to BYU.

McArthur Krishna: Yep, yep, yep. And my mom had 100% schemed it, right? But I became a young professional in a completely different scene in Washington, DC, where all of a sudden you saw people from all over the world. And my ward was the most diverse I’ve ever been in, both in race and politics and age. And it was incredible.

It was, to this day, I think of that congregation with absolute humility and such gratitude. We had lots of people who worked on Capitol Hill. And so we had somebody who was the chief of staff to the most conservative Republican, and someone else who was a speech writer for Hillary Clinton, was like the executive secretary. And it was fun.

It was amazing. Because we learned that we could think really differently about how to solve the world’s problems, but we had respect for each other and that we are brothers and sisters in Christ. And it was a very solid lesson. I was in that ward for 12 years, and it was a very solid lesson and a model for what can be possible. 

I ran a business. I owned a business with some partners, and I went to India and had a very compelling spiritual experience that India was going to be significant in my life. But it still took, let me think, maybe another 10 years for that to play out. I had thought India was going to be significant because I was dating the guy that brought me to India. And then when that didn’t work out, I was like, wait, God, I cannot feed an entire subcontinent to like the ending of a relationship. Like I claim this subcontinent for myself.

And so I started going to India about once a year because I had this really strong spiritual feeling that it was going to be significant and I didn’t want it to be tied to this relationship. It’s like a friend of mine who always wanted her husband to play the guitar because her father had played the guitar. And all of a sudden she realized one day that she could take guitar lessons.

Jody Moore: She could play the guitar.

McArthur Krishna: Exactly. Right? 

Jody Moore: So, yeah, I mean, it’s an interesting just point you make about, you know, we do believe in getting spiritual personal revelation or inspiration or whatever you want to call it, but the interpretation of that is always up for grabs, I guess you could say, right?

McArthur Krishna: I’ve had maybe two instances in my entire life where the interpretation was not up for grabs. And one of those was actually marrying my husband, which I have been forever grateful for that clarity. 

Anyway, so I started going to India once a year. I met my husband there. I had an incredibly spiritual experience. It still took me about a year to actually embrace God’s will on this. I literally kept feeling like I was going along my path, and then I would get too scared of the path, or I thought the path was crazy, or I thought God was crazy for trusting me. And so I had all sorts of quibbles with this path. 

And I kept feeling God picking me up and putting me back on the path, and back on the path, and back on the path. And finally, I prayed about, like, okay, is this person my husband? Because it’s time to fish or cut bait. The most clear, overwhelming, powerful answer to prayer I’ve ever had. There was no quibbling. 

I could have quibbled all along the way with all the other, maybe this, maybe this, maybe this is just a learning opportunity, right? All the things. And then this was just clear. Like, nope, this is who you are to marry. And that set me on the path of moving to India. 

And frankly, I find God’s paths both baffling and more abundant than what I come up with on my own. And I have a good imagination. But it has been astounding to me that when I turn my path over to God, the myriad of things that could come that I never dreamt of.

Jody Moore: Thank you for sharing that. I just love hearing people’s personal stories and I think you have such an interesting one. A lot of your work in recent years and a lot of I know your writing and teaching has centered around the topics, Heavenly Mother, uplifting women’s roles and power in the church, authority in the church. And recently, I know you’ve become really excited about this topic of sovereignty for women. 

McArthur Krishna: Yes.

Jody Moore: So let’s just dive in. I love, you’re kind of like me, I feel like, where you get a topic that you’re passionate about it. And so I want you to present it to us in the way that makes the most sense to you. And then I’ll have tons of questions and comments, I’m sure.

McArthur Krishna: I would expect no less. So the reason I think sovereignty is so important is to…

Jody Moore: Wait, can you define what you mean by sovereignty, first of all?

McArthur Krishna: Yes. So, sovereignty is, I’m going to use women because that’s what I work on, but this is obviously true for women and men both. A Sovereign woman is a person who trusts herself, knows she can turn to God to get personal revelation, and trusts that personal revelation no matter what comes at her. That is sovereign.

You know you can turn to God and you can trust what you get. The reason I think this is so important for women of the LDS Church is twofold. One is we came to this earth life to become gods, to learn how to become gods. That means that we have to learn how to be like pro-level agencies, like agents to act. We have to have agency.

If you’re not being a sovereign person, then you’re not flexing and growing and stretching into your agency at your fullest potential. So one, I think it’s the whole purpose. I think agency and being a sovereign, learning to be sovereign, learning to be like God, is the most important thing we can do in this life. One.

Jody Moore: I agree with you. Can I, for just a minute before we move on from agency, I don’t know if it’s just innate within us or if it’s because, you know, before we all were sent here to earth, we all chose Christ’s plan, which included agency? That was a big differentiator between our options, right? But I noticed that we fiercely protect our agency even unconsciously, it seems to be innate.

So it’s the toddler realizing that they are capable of getting in the car by themselves and suddenly having a tantrum when you don’t wait and we don’t want to wait because it takes so much longer for them to climb in the car than for us to put them in. But they realize now, wait, I can do this and I want to do this. Even from a very young age.

And then it’s the teenager pushing back on, don’t tell me what to do. And then it’s all of us as adults, not wanting to be told that we have to, or that we can’t. And I just notice it seems to be, even though to your point, sometimes we lose touch with our sovereignty, or maybe we never had it, and we need to develop it stronger I do think that we all understand on some innate level how important that agency is.

McArthur Krishna: 100% I think it’s an innate godly need. Yeah. If we’re to become like God, God is obviously like the most sovereign beings, right? Our heavenly parents can clearly function with their own power, right? And so to me, that’s almost the definition of God is to be a sovereign being. And so if we’re becoming like God, this is a skill set that we need to grow, develop, nurture, practice for the first time, whatever stage.

In my mind, it’s not what stage you’re at on this kind of sovereign journey, it’s the orientation. I want to be a sovereign being. I feel this is vital to development. What does that look like where I am now, and what does that look like tomorrow and the next day and the next day and the next day? Right? Because this is where people are in different places on this, right?

Jody Moore: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

McArthur Krishna: So the point number two about why this is so important for LDS women specifically, because again, it’s important for both men and women, but to talk about the conversation today, I’m going to aim towards women. The reason I think it’s so important for LDS women specifically is because we were actually trained to give up our sovereignty. We were taught to defer our sovereignty. 

For example, it has been fairly recent in my adult life that the temple ceremony changed and that I go directly to God instead of having a mediated relationship to God. So the way it used to be is a woman would go to her husband, a husband would go to God, and that’s changed. But it meant for most of my adult life, I was taught that my relationship to God was mediated. A mediated relationship to God is not a sovereign relationship with God. 

So there’s absolutely nothing wrong, of course, with having wisdom in your life—wisdom from manuals, wisdom from prophets, wisdom from local leaders, wisdom from friends, from parents. I’m not saying there’s not contributions to our decision-making, but to be a sovereign being, you have to be able to hold back someone else’s opinion if you know you’re on the Lord’s errand, if you know that you are aligned with God. 

So sovereignty is not, for an LDS person, is not external to God, right? This is aligning yourself with God and trusting that alignment. So I can give you a great story about this. Ardeth Kapp was the general young women’s president, right? So president of all the young women in the church. For those of us who are our age, we would know her, right? Like she was the person who created personal progress and was meaningful in talking to women about their divine work. For another generation, they may not even know this name. 

But there is a story both that I listened to on the Magnify podcast and in her autobiography, that talks about this moment where she was asleep in bed, woke up, had this incredible, powerful feeling that God needed her to write something. So she hops out of bed, starts to write and write and write, and she says that she just felt like she was channeling God through her arm to her pen, like getting it down. She was 100% clear that this was divine revelation.

She goes in to meet with the 70 that the General Young Women’s Presidency reported to, and she starts saying, like, this is what happened, this is what my experience was. And he says, we’re not going to do that. And she brings it up, every meeting that they have, every month. And finally, after a few months, he says, quit bringing this up. We’re not going to do this.

Okay, so here’s this person who’s 100% clear that this has arrived to her from God, but she’s being told that this is not what’s going to happen. What do you do in that moment? Do you trust your sovereignty? Do you think, oh, maybe I got it wrong? You start to question, what happens there? I don’t know. She doesn’t describe, but this is one of my questions. However, I don’t know what she thought, but I know what she did.

Her next meeting with President Monson, who I think at that time was not president, I think he’s one of the counselors, said, anything else you’d like to share with us, Ardith, after they had their meeting? She said, as a matter of fact, there is. And she slid across that pamphlet and said, here’s how this came to be, and tells them the whole story about being inspired. Within six months, that pamphlet was distributed worldwide.

Jody Moore: What’s the lesson we should take from this?

McArthur Krishna: Exactly. If you are clear you’re on the Lord’s errand, that was a sovereign being. She knew she was on the Lord’s errand. She knew she was aligned, and she did not hesitate. She held to her sovereignty until she’d accomplished what the Lord had told her to accomplish. To me, this is just incredible. Right?

Jody Moore: That is incredible, especially like you said, this was 30, 40 years ago, right?

McArthur Krishna: And I think the power in this is we have to seek God’s alignment. That’s not easy. Making sure you’re in tune is not an easy exercise. That’s something to cultivate daily, right? To foster that relationship and foster that fine-tuning.

And most of us don’t have utter clarity on all of our answers. We’re not always sure we’re in alignment, right? I think that’s where the trick is. But I think when we are clear to have the moral courage to say, I’m a sovereign being, and I will continue on this path. 

So we’re just releasing a book called Changemakers, because I think there’s a time when women are concerned right now about whether or not their voices matter in our faith.

And so we had the idea that we should turn to history and kind of see, even recent history, modern history, the story of Ardeth is in that book. But we wanted to collect a selection of stories that would really hold up the power of what it means to be a sovereign woman and how when you have this alignment with God, then you can make change in this world, even when you hit bumps and roadblocks and structures that are not in favor of whatever sort of alignment you know you’re carrying.

Jody Moore: What I love about that story is I feel like a lot of times we think, like, oh, God told me to marry this man or move to this city or take this job or in this situation, I received this wisdom and guidance. So therefore, it should all play out easily, right? Like what is it, how is it that God told me to move here and I’m so unhappy here? I’m not making friends here, my kids aren’t doing well here, or I’m struggling in my marriage, or how could it be? Surely God’s only going to tell us to do things that are going to lead to a path that is smooth and easy and simple, right?

And I love in this example, first of all, that she was told no over and over again it sounds like, and still just continued to find the right opportunity to bring it up again. And so sometimes it’s that, it’s persistence, right? It’s like, yeah, and you know, I work with a lot of coaches. We’re like, I felt really inspired to start a coaching business. I help people, but it’s just not, it’s not working yet. I’m like feeling inspired and having everything go smoothly are not necessarily a thing.

McArthur Krishna: I’m about to be confessional. That’s why I just paused and stumbled. Jody makes you confessional. Right? I was a little grouchy at God. That’s an understatement. Because this courtship and decision-making process was so hard. It was so hard. I felt like lacerating, like a mind that was getting lacerated because the cognitive dissonance was so real. And my husband’s lovely, so this is not a commentary on him at all. This is about process. 

So I was complaining. I was praying, and I was rah, rah, rah. And I’ve always thought it’s really good to be authentic in my prayers because God knows who I am anyway, and so I should not try to hide that I’m patient or humble or whatever because God knows what I’m bringing to the table, right? So I’m very authentic in my prayers. 

So I was rah-rah-rhying, and all of a sudden I got this absolute, it was almost like I got a hand put on my head, like a calming-like child. And then it came into my mind, yes, I could have done it smoother and you would have gotten him, right? You would have married your husband. But this way, the hard, scrabbly, demanding, stretching, wrenching way, this way, you got him and me. Capital M, capital E, like me. 

And I thought, oh, if what we’re supposed to be doing in this life is to become godlike and to develop a relationship with our Savior and with our Heavenly Parents, then being put in a situation that demanded my dependence on them was the point. Like, that was moving me a step closer on this journey. And it was so much wisdom for me that, like, just because I was on the Lord’s path, it was not going to be smooth. But it meant that I needed the Lord. 

If the path would have been smooth and easy, I would have been like, thanks, thanks, I got it. But I needed God. And I think that has given me a lot of peace when that path got harder. I mean, I moved to India and things didn’t smooth out, right? I mean, it got harder in different ways. And so I think this moment of peace has carried me a long way.

The point of all this is to become like them, to be with them. I mean, Elder Oaks says our theology begins with Heavenly Parents. Our highest aspiration is to be like them, right? And so I think in that understanding, having this turning to them, it is the point.

Jody Moore: It is the point, yeah. And who we become in the process of that, right? To your point, to become more like them. I’m thinking too about just our listeners and this idea of sovereignty, I think will really resonate with everyone. For me, the questions that are coming up are things like, well, how do I know in what areas I need to work on this?

What does it look like that might, and obviously we’re not trying to say it’s a checkbox, like, congratulations, you’re done or you’re not, but just can you give us examples?

McArthur Krishna: You have been anointed sovereign, right?

Jody Moore: You are now a sovereign woman. Congratulations.

McArthur Krishna: Exactly, congratulations.

Jody Moore: Yeah, we’re not saying that, but I think we all have blind spots. I know I have plenty of blind spots where I think, like, no, I’m confident, I’m independent. I value myself as a woman, but what are some things maybe I’m not considering or that other people our listeners may not be considering?

McArthur Krishna: You know, it’s so great is whenever I have questions like this because I had the same question whatever questions like this I dig into it and then I end up with publishing a book. Good.

Jody Moore: We’re going to give you your next book right now.

McArthur Krishna: This is how I process. Also, we’ve done one. It’s called In the Image of Our Heavenly Parents. Oh, that’s right. How to Create a More Divine Marriage.

Jody Moore: Love it. It’s such a good book.

McArthur Krishna: I had this exact question of how do I become divine in my marriage, how to become a sovereign being in my marriage? Because I’m not Ardeth Kapp. I’m not in the position to exercise my sovereignty in that way. So in my day-to-day life, I’m married, I have children. In my day-to-day life, how do I show up as a sovereign being?

And what was amazing is we were working with four different LDS therapists, and they laid down ways that husbands and wives can function as equal partners. Because we know from the Gospel Topics essay that Elder Renlund declared in General Conference April 2022 that this is our doctrine on Heavenly Mother. And it says in that essay that Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother work together, that’s a direct quote, for the salvation of the children side by side. And that was the pattern.

So I thought, okay, if the pattern is to be side by side, if the pattern is to work together, what does this look like in my day-to-day marriage? And when I started to talk, but I know nothing about this, so I got a hold of LDS therapists to say, tell me about this. And so Jennifer Finlayson-Fife is one of them, Julie Hanks, and Jeff Dewar, and Ty Mansfield. And so we had two women and two men who came together to write this book about what does it mean basically to be a sovereign being in your marriage, how to be an equal partner.

And it was fascinating because I’m like you. I just assumed like I got this. I believe in women. I talk about this all the time. This is my thing. And I dug into their 12 different points, because we basically set it up like once a month. There’s one point to work on every month, like a workbook. And they had 12 points of how to kind of check yourself against this model.

And I realized two of the 10, I was not showing up as an equal partner or a sovereign being. And it was fascinating because I had just assumed that I was, check, check, I got this, right? That this is, I can worry about other things, right? And so for me, it was super interesting to realize. And so one of those was soul development.

So when I own my own business, we invest in lots of people’s professional development. We had a professional development budget. People would go out, they’d learn something, they’d come back and teach the rest of us. We 100% invested in people’s growth. And there was money and resources behind that.

When I had young children and stepped away from that job because I moved to India all of a sudden I realized that my husband was continuing that investment in his career but that I had not, right? And I thought this is fascinating. So I started to talk to women about soul investment, soul development. And it was the stories I got back, the reasons I got back were fascinating.

Well, I’d like to go do a master’s, but there’s no return on investment. My family can’t afford for me to like go to school and learn something if I’m not going to make more money at this, right? And someone else just said, I don’t have time. I have a bunch of kids.

And so I was watching all these women list all of these reasons they couldn’t invest in their souls. And it was fascinating to me because the example I always use is like me sitting on the sidelines at a soccer game and being like, I invest in my kid soccer practice and cleats and fees and uniforms and camp chairs and like rain or shine. I am there. And it’s not because I expect her to go pro, it’s because I know it’s good for her soul.

Jody Moore: Yes, I’m such a huge believer in that. It’s largely what motivated me to focus on LDS women in my coaching business, especially stay-at-home moms, right? I’m like you, I came from the corporate world. I saw how helpful it is to go hear a motivational speaker every now and then, to go to a development type of conference or things. And I’m like, when you’re at home raising kids, you’re not getting that unless you seek it out.

And we put exactly like you said, time, money, effort into our kids sports and camps. And it’s not like once you reach adulthood, I think that a lot of us justify that with like, well, they’re growing and developing and this is such an important time while they’re developing their self-concept and their brains are still forming. And I’m like, that doesn’t end though. That’s what this whole life is. 

Like yes, your brain is changing. There’s some different biological things happening with children, but every one of us needs, even if you love where you’re at and you feel confident and great and you don’t really have an interest in getting a master’s degree, that’s fine. But stagnation is not actually an option. We’re either improving or declining.

McArthur Krishna: Well, and you think about the story we know from the scriptures with the talents. What happened to the person who buried their talents? And so a friend of mine is the mother to nine children and she said, I have mother muscles like out the wazoo, but the talents I was given, God-given talents of singing, dancing, theater, art, she said, I haven’t exercised those in 20 years. I can feel that they’ve atrophied. I can feel that they’ve disappeared.

And so this is not about going to get a master’s. This is about looking around your life and saying, what are the things that feel like me? What are the things that give me energy and spark and joy? What is just of interest to me? Your interest is valid enough just to say, I’m interested in this.

Jody Moore: Yes. I love that you call it soul development because that can just include so many things. You don’t have to justify it. You can just be like, I don’t know, it just speaks to my soul.

McArthur Krishna: Exactly. So she started – Thursday nights became her soul development night and she’d round up all the kids, pick them all up 4:00. She literally shut the door to her room and she had Thursday nights to herself. She had six hours between 4pm and 10pm and everybody on the other side of that door, her husband, the big kids, handled homework and dinner and bedtimes and all the things. And her family supported her soul development.

And this is what I think is really, really important. You shouldn’t do soul development with this idea that like, my husband and children should not be impacted by this. They should not know there’s anything amiss in this. I’ll make 50 trillion freezer meals to make sure that they’re not inconvenienced by my soul development. Teaching your children it’s worth inconveniencing them for other people’s soul development is a really important lesson.

Jody Moore: That’s right, that’s right. Amen, I love that one.

McArthur Krishna: Doesn’t matter what it is. It is, if you want a nap, a nap is immediately valid if that’s what your soul needs, right?

Jody Moore: Yeah, I just think that’s so important. And I do find, maybe it’s because I’m getting older, but I find I’ve gotten really good at just building that into my routine. And sometimes there’s something big or new that I wanna try or learn or et cetera, but I have a lot of things that I do just because I need it to just even maintain my connection with myself, personal care, maybe we call it, I don’t know, to the extent that like…

McArthur Krishna: Soul investment.

Jody Moore: Soul investment, that when it’s my birthday or something, And I think it’s fine if you want a big celebration on your birthday, that’s cool too. But people are always like, let’s do something.

I just had a birthday, right? So people are like, what do you want to do for your birthday? And I’m like, honestly, I feel like I celebrate me all year. I really do. I take such good care of myself.

I connect with myself. I that I don’t need I don’t need anything I mean like yeah, let’s go to lunch or whatever, but I feel so complete already that any of that stuff is just extra and nice and I appreciate it when people are kind, but I don’t need it like I used to be hanging on waiting when it was going to be my turn and have my break or my celebration.

McArthur Krishna: Yeah. And I think that’s exactly right, that it has to be baked in. I think immediately women fall prey to thinking they’re being selfish, right? That anything that requires family, budget, time, inconvenience, somehow prioritizing their own soul, immediately women feel like selfish, right? Like, cannot do that.

And I want to really, really eradicate that because if we know we’re on this Earth life to become like God, then we know that our soul has to be invested in. There’s a gap between us and God. And if we’re trying to grow towards that gap, to be your best divine self takes investment. And so I want to make sure that people don’t feel this idea that that is in any way a self-absorbed or a selfish moment, but to say, I would invest in my soul the same way I would invest in any of my children’s or any of my friends’ souls, and that our soul has worth. This really real understanding that we have divine worth means our souls are worth that investment.

Jody Moore: Yeah, and I’d love that you bring up that word because that is the word that comes up a lot, selfish. I don’t wanna be selfish, isn’t it selfish? And there’s lots of ways you can define that word, I guess. But sometimes when I’m coaching, I was just coaching a woman recently who said that, whatever it was she’s wanting to pursue, and she said, but it feels selfish. Isn’t that selfish?

And I was like, well, maybe it’s okay. Like if by selfish you mean other people in my family might have to sacrifice while I go spend time or resources on this thing, then I actually think that is the point. I think it’s okay. I think it, and at the same time, we have doctrine or counsel anyway around what brings us the most joy is serving and giving and not being self-centered and self-focused. But here’s what I think.

It kind of goes back to like basic rational self-interest theory, which says that actually every one of us is all day long constantly doing what we think will serve us best. We’re trying to maximize benefits, minimize costs, right? I mean, it’s why, like, when people vote, we give them the I voted sticker to take the time to go do it and figure it out and deal with it. 

Like, but if you have a sticker and then people see and think you’re a good citizen, you can feel good about yourself, it’s like one more benefit, even if you think your vote doesn’t count, right? So, but my whole point in this is like, okay, but what we’re saying is think about and consider and do what you want to do.

The truth is, also, what I want as a mother is to show up for my children and take care of them and my husband and people I love and sacrifice for them sometimes. Go sit in the rain at the soccer game so that they see that I support them. Like I do actually want those things too. I don’t just want to go to yoga and go shopping. You know?

McArthur Krishna: Well, and I think there’s a big difference between self-centered, which means all decisions are made from you are the…

Jody Moore: Me at the center of the universe.

McArthur Krishna: Right, the entire universe, exactly. But to say, so what we talk about to our kids all the time is that our family is a system, and that we all need to be contributing members of the system. Right? So, this may be a terrible statement for people who are listening. I couldn’t care less what my kids’ rooms look like.

If you want to live in squalor, that’s 100% your choice. I’m not going to bust at you or hurt our relationship by worrying about this. That’s your choice. However, it’s not negotiable that your job is to unload the dishwasher. This is your contribution to the family.

And then I’ll say to them things like I do this and this and this for you, not because I need a medal for it, but because we need awareness, right? Like children are not fully aware of all the things that are happening for them or around them or on their behalf. So when I say to my nine-year-old recently, like, these are the things I’m doing for you, but this means I need to do this errand and you need to come with me. And I’d even really appreciate if you came with me happily. You don’t have to be happy when you come, but you’re going to come because this is the balance, right?

I’m doing this for you and this for me, and this is what needs to happen. And I think teaching kids that needs and a system need to be balanced is actually vital. It’s not just vital for our families, it’s vital for our communities and for our nation and for our world. We have a lot of resources in this world. How are we going to balance the needs of the world?

So I think teaching kids this, that a mother’s soul is also worth investment, should just be so baked into them that it’s not even a thing, right? So then they grow up and your daughters will be like, well, my soul’s worth investment because my mother modeled this. And sons will be like, oh, my wife’s soul’s worth investment because my mother modeled this, right? And so we have this opportunity to start a virtuous cycle by having our families participate in our soul development.

Jody Moore: I love that so much. What do you say to someone who’s like, yeah, my spouse doesn’t see it that way? There is shockingly to me still a lot of old-school thinking about what the woman’s role is or a lot of I go to work all day and earn money and so this is your job. My job is to make the money. Your job is to do this. What do you say if your spouse or your family isn’t supportive?

McArthur Krishna: Well, it depends where on the spectrum you feel like being in your sovereign journey. So not investing is not an option. So that’s off the table. So then it’s just a matter of like, well, kids are at school and you’re at work, so I’m going to take nine to five on Tuesdays to do my soul development, whether or not you approve of it. That’s okay.

It’s non-negotiable to say that everyone in a family system needs soul development. How you go about that, you could go all the way to be like, well, it is your job to make the money, but it’s also your job in a covenant relationship. You have covenanted to be with me and to us both be on the journey of this life developmental path. Part of that covenant is supporting my soul development, right? This is not about who earns money or who stays home. This is about that we have a couple have covenanted to become like gods together.

Jody Moore: Yeah, I mean, there’s like valid arguments you could make, I think, on either side of it. And I think I know what you’re saying. And what we both feel is that these are complicated, personal. I asked you a really tough question and asked you to answer it for all different situations.

McArthur Krishna: All women.

Jody Moore: I know, in all situations. What’s the right answer, McArthur? I mean, soul development… how you navigate it, right? Sometimes it is pointing that out. Like you said, this is part of a covenant relationship. This is actually part of our doctrine even.

I think to make sure, just I want to say to anybody listening, that you get some support and help and that you talk through it with a therapist or a coach or a friend or a sister or somebody who can help you get some perspective on it, because I think it’s tricky. Like you said at the very beginning, yeah, if you’re 100% certain God is channeling this through my arm and my pen onto the page, okay, but what if you’re not? What if you kind of think that, but maybe this is just your own idea, and maybe you are being selfish, and there’s just so much noise in our heads.

McArthur Krishna: So I can tell you my own personal experience with this. I had been interested in taking this stone sculpture class. Well, I’d been interested in taking an art class. I mean, I’m an artist. I’ve had things hang in galleries.

One of my pieces was in the Church History Museum in their last show, but it’s not like this is my profession, right? I do that for joy. And so I wanted to take an art class for joy. Can you imagine what an insane motivation?

Jody Moore: How selfish.

McArthur Krishna: How selfish. Exactly. And I started looking around and looking around and honestly, all the classes I was looking at were too expensive. I was adding it up and I was like, I just can’t justify that. And like, yada, yada.

And then this stone sculpture class fell in my lap. And for XYZ reasons, it was gonna be half the price of what it normally was. And so like I mustered my courage and said, okay, I can do this. And then I ran into the logistics of like, okay, but what am I going to do with my kids when I’m in a stone sculpture class, right, during the summer? And this is exactly what you were just saying.

You turn to your community. And I was talking with my sister about like how I was going to manage this. And she just said, pick me, I’ll come, I’ll be your nanny. And so she came to the location of my class and brought her three kids and my kid with her and she was the best darn nanny you’ve ever seen. She took the kids on great adventures and did art classes with them.

I mean, it was just such an incredible—I’m going to cry. It was such an incredible gift from a sister, right? To be like, I see that this joyful thing is on your horizon, but you may not be able to pull it off without some assistance, I will be that person.

Jody Moore: So good. I’m gonna share a story too. So when I, 11 years ago, discovered coaching and all the tools that I teach now, and they had transformed me so much. And I was also going through a strange time in my career where I’d been laid off, and I was like, am I gonna stay home with the kids or get another job, or what am I gonna do? And this life coach training suddenly I discovered, and it was a lot of money.

And this is one of the things that in hindsight, I am so glad I did it this way, but I don’t know where I got the wisdom to do it. But it was me practicing being a sovereign woman, right? It was like my husband and I make decisions about this amount of money, we would make it together, right? And so at the same time, I didn’t know if I was going to go start a business and make back this money. I actually didn’t have that intention.

I just, like you said, was like, I’m kind of lost and struggling, and this is one thing that I get excited about and I feel pulled towards, I need to go do it. And it’s a lot of money. But what I did that I’m so glad I did was before I even approached my husband with the conversation, I got really clear myself about is this the right thing for me to do? Because I know if I go to him and I’m like, “I kind of want to do this thing and I’m not sure if I should, I mean, it’s a lot of money, but I think it would be good for me and I don’t know what do you think?” Usually he’s like, “I don’t know if you need that.”

I mean, don’t you think you could get this by listening to a podcast or whatever, right? Which is totally understandable too. It’s not because he doesn’t support me or doesn’t think that I should, my husband’s very supportive of self-development, but you know, in the end, my money and his money, we share money. So it would make sense that he’s going to be hesitant. But what I did is I just allowed myself, like you said, to make the decision.

This is the right thing for me. Not because I’m going to go make money with it, just because I want it and I need it and it’s okay to want things, even expensive things. So then I could go to him and say, I want to do this thing. And it kind of sounds crazy and it’s really expensive. And I hope you’ll support and I’m going to figure it out one way or another. I hope you’re supportive of the idea, but if you’re not, I want to hear your opinion. I am open to what you think, but I feel called and pulled in this direction.

McArthur Krishna: I mean, it’s clarity and it’s also a really strong anchoring that your soul is worth development. Your soul is worth investment. And I think, and soul development does not have to be about money. Like I said, my friend just said Thursday nights, right? Like that’s not about money.

So this is not about, when we talk about investment, I mean, sometimes I can simply equate to money, but it can also equate to just time and energy and all of the other things. But I think that kind of really strong anchor belief. So we were taught, if you grew up in the Young Women’s program, that we have divine worth. Have we really rolled that into our souls? Is that really something we believe?

That if we have divine worth, that means we are worth investing in. We are worth those steps to grow and develop. Our joy is worth, right? And I think we have this concept that to be a good parent, especially a good mother, equates to martyrdom, right? If you’re being good at this, you’re divining yourself.

You’re taking the smallest piece of pie, you’re eating last. You are like, your needs are ranked last. And this is, I think, this is not a last shall be first kind of model. That is not what we’re talking about, right? This is literally implying that there’s some sort of virtue in saying you’re not of worth. That’s what we have to be really careful of. There’s no virtue in saying my soul is not worth investing in.

Jody Moore: That’s right. I’ve been using this example lately of like, you know, the first great commandment is to love God and then love thy neighbor as thyself.

McArthur Krishna: As thyself.

Jody Moore: I’m like, well, I personally don’t think we’re capable of loving others more than we love ourselves. And when we don’t value ourselves, we can’t fully value anyone else. But even if we take the first commandment to love God, right? We are God’s creations. So I don’t know anybody that is a big Elon Musk fan that says they hate Teslas and Cybertrucks.

Like, if you love Elon Musk, you like Teslas and Cybertrucks.  I love Taylor Swift because I love all the music she’s created. How do you love God if not by loving all of God’s creations, including you?

McArthur Krishna: And believing God, because God said we are here to become like them, right? And so if we’re believing God, then we have to look around and be like, okay, what does that require then, right? And self-negation is not how you become abundant, right? And so having this stretch of abundance and to become godlike. And again, that doesn’t mean that we don’t serve and be kind and all of the things.

It just means that we value our souls as we would value our neighbors, right, as we would value our child. But I think to me, a day-to-day sovereignty crops up all the time in how we make decisions. And I think your point to clarity on something big, like I’m going to go do coaching and this is a big investment, is something that can crop up. But I think it’s day-to-day decisions that also crop up in our sovereignty. 

And so what is our relationship with our family? What is our relationship with our neighbors? What is our relationship with the church? And so to say that we are family-centered, church-supported, and I think understanding that even when I make decisions about what to do with my family, that that is my sovereign choice And trusting that I have the stewardship in that choice. Right?

And so there might be times when, because here’s the catch, of course, everybody’s a sovereign being. Right. And my sovereign being is my bump into your sovereign being, right? We have different opinions about who to do things or who to vote for or how the world should look, right? But I think if we recognize that there’s this tension between us making sovereign being decisions and living in community, that my sovereign rights, for example, don’t take over someone else’s sovereign rights.

So for example, I get to decide what books my children read. That is my sovereign right as a parent to make that decision. It is nobody else’s decision, right?

Not the government’s, not a non-profit’s, not Moms for Liberty. It is my decision about what books my children read. And at the same time, that doesn’t mean I have a right to say what your children read, right? And so understanding where that line is between being sovereign and living in community, but also trusting that if we’ve been given the mantle of responsibility for just ourselves, I mean, this is true if you were single and not married, anything, that we have the right to make decisions that work for us.

And so for example, when I lived in India, I lived a plane ride away from church, right? Like for the first time in my life, I had been one of these people, I mean, absolutely when I was growing up, I went to church every Sunday. And then even when I was in college, I had this very strict rule for myself that if I was out dancing late on Saturday night and I fell asleep in church on Sunday, I was grounded the next weekend. Like I would ground myself. I love it. Right? I had the right to expect better of myself.

But all of a sudden, I’m in India where I can’t get to church every week. What am I going to do as my own sovereign being? Does that mean how do I handle my time? How do I handle my resources? And so choosing that we were going to invest in a plane ticket once a month so I could go to church was a big deal in my family, right? Like, I’m going to make this commitment.

And then what I did with those other Sundays, it was super interesting to me because the model again, that I’d always followed and that I’ve been given was you go to church every Sunday. And so when all of a sudden that model was no longer applicable in my life, no longer even possible in my life, I had to come up as a sovereign being, I had to come up with a new way of doing things, right? To say, okay, what serves me and my spiritual needs and what serves my family?

And I think this is something that we regularly do, we just don’t quite understand we’re doing it. So for instance, Diwali just passed. It’s an Indian celebration of light. It’s like the equivalent in scale to Christmas if you’re a Christian.

And my husband was a little bit like, but we’re doing Diwali differently than we do it in India. And I was like, exactly, like redoing traditions as you become an adult or as you move places in the world, you have to figure out how to do traditions. Does my Christmas look exactly the way my parents’ Christmas look? No. Some, yes, because my mom was brilliant. She has all sorts of great ideas about culture creation. Like some of the traditions I’ve carried from her and some traditions I’ve had to make up or change or wiggle.

And so making up traditions is one way we’re sovereign beings. We look at our life and what our needs are and we decide, I can decide. I can take what’s been given to me and I can make it into what works for me. And I think this should be true of everything for how we set up what our school looks like. 

Some women have decided and men have decided that they want to homeschool children, right? They’ve looked at the system and said, I want to do this another way. Some people look at how church does things and say, I want to do this another way. Some people look at their traditions around Christmas or holidays and say, I’m going to do this another way.

So part of being a sovereign being is these regular choices about how to set up your life and trusting that you can make wise decisions. Or if they’re not wise, as it turns out, you can adjust. You can change things. This is a work in progress. But I think that the traditions is a good example because it’s something that we hold dear to and we get attached to without actually exercising and evaluating it from the lens of being a sovereign being. What do I actually care about?

I mean, I have one friend who doesn’t even, she doesn’t even put up a Christmas tree. She couldn’t care less about Christmas decorations and holidays and whatever, and she and her family leave the country on Christmas. She’s like, I have done the math. What I’ve saved on Christmas presents is the equivalent to going to XYZ place, right? But she had to really be a sovereign being to look at all of the accoutrements that come with celebrating the Christmas.

You know, all of the pumpkin spice, I mean, like, you know, all the things, and say, is this really what is serving me? And I think that’s what it is to be a sovereign being, is to look at the things that are handed to you in whatever form they come in and say, does this serve me? What do I want my life to look like? Who do I want to be? 

And I think those kind of questions mean that you can evaluate. I mean, literally everything you’re handed, the relationships, the traditions, your faith, like all things can be evaluated to, is this serving becoming the person I think my Heavenly Parents want me to be.

Jody Moore: And what I love about it is it requires an evolution of ourselves to be able to trust in ourselves, to give ourselves the permission to make those decisions that don’t go along with the norms or the crowds. And the word that keeps coming up in my mind is this word obedience, right? That I think a lot of us turn to at times because it’s been so highlighted, especially in our faith. But I love, I think it was Jennifer Finlayson-Fife I heard talk about this once, that obedience is, it’s not that we’re against obedience, right? It’s just very immature and necessary at times.

So it’s a great shortcut though, right? So if I’m like starting a business, let’s say, and I know nothing about business, then to listen to other people who have successfully run online businesses and just obey what they say and just give it a try because I don’t have yet enough experience or development in my business to be able to make my own decision. It makes sense that as a shortcut, I would follow their advice. I would be “obedient”. And from there, then I learn, and then I develop my own opinion, and I develop my own ways.

And so that’s really, I think, how obedience is designed, even with commandments in the church and God’s plan is like, here’s some shortcuts. And as a child who doesn’t know better even, or just in a certain area, maybe I don’t have experience, but eventually develop your own sovereignty. Develop your own sovereignty is the goal.

McArthur Krishna: Absolutely. And I think that’s why I wrestled so much, where I had that kind of lacerating cognitive dissonance with whether or not I should marry my husband. Because the obedient thing was we married someone in our faith in the temple. And that had been my expectation. And so to feel that God was putting me on a different path was blowing my mind.

Jody Moore: Because it didn’t look like “obedience.”

McArthur Krishna: It didn’t look like obedience. And what does that mean? Am I not obedient? Am I not faithful? Am I not who I thought I was?

Like all the things, right? And then I became really clear about this, and I’ve been so grateful for this. To me, obedience, I think of it as alignment with God. And alignment with God is different than aligning yourself with any sort of other external piece. And let’s be clear, God is God.

God is not even Scripture. God is not temple. God is not church. All of these things are helpful things, but they’re not God, right? They’re tips and tools and practices and community and rites and covenants to even help us along that path, but they’re not to be confused with God, right?

There’s a difference there. And understanding that my allegiance, even obedience, alignment is with God, right, is a very, very different thing than allegiance to the trappings, right? And those may be very vital trappings, but they’re not the same thing. And we need to be able to differentiate those as we’re following personal revelation. To be a sovereign being, you have to trust your personal revelation and that can be wacky and hard, right?

Jody Moore: Yeah. So good. Well, I could talk to you all day about this, McArthur. I so appreciate your time. Where can people go to get, what is your latest book that they should check out or a book that would go along with this topic well?

McArthur Krishna: The book I mentioned is called Changemakers, Women Who Boldly Built Zion, and it is available for pre-order on Amazon in December. The couples guide that I mentioned in the image of her Heavenly Parents, in their image, is also now available on Amazon. So if you type in my name, McArthur Krishna, on Amazon, you’ll get all the options.

Jody Moore: All the books.

McArthur Krishna: All the books, right? But I do highly recommend, if you’re a person like me and I’m very pragmatic and I want to like this, this, this, this. I think the couple’s guide is really great because it actually gives you things that you can think about and tackle and do. It’s not amorphous ideas. I don’t do well with amorphous. I want to plan. Right?

Jody Moore: Yeah. Yeah. Give me things to do.

McArthur Krishna: I think that’s really great. And I learn by story. And so I love the Changemakers book because it was so inspiring as my daughters, I have three daughters, as my daughters have questions about their role in this world and specifically their role at church and how we play.

And I think encouraging women to understand, as we wrap up, like this is the big idea, right? That being a sovereign being is vitally important for who we are as an individual. And then being a sovereign being means how you play in community, right? And that these women did things in creative, inspiring ways because they are following the direction they were led as sovereign beings. And I think that book about being a sovereign being in a community and what good your sovereignty can do in the world is powerful.

Jody Moore: Love it. Thank you so much, McArthur.

McArthur Krishna: Awesome, awesome. Nice to be here.

Oh wow, look at that. You made it to the end. Your time and attention is valuable, and I don’t take it lightly that you made it this far. In fact, it tells me you might be like me; insatiably curious about people and life and potential and connection. Maybe you have big dreams but a small budget and no time. You’re tired, but bored. You’re content, but dissatisfied. Sound familiar? Come to a free coaching call and see for yourself what’s possible: jodymoore.com/freecoaching to register. That’s jodymoore.com/freecoaching.