361. When Your Spouse has a Pornography Problem with Jolene Winn

I’m Jody Moore and this is Better Than Happy, episode 361: If Your Spouse has a Pornography Problem with Jolene Winn.

Did you know that you can live a life that’s even better than happy? My name is Jody Moore. I’m a master certified life coach and a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And if you’re willing to go with me I can show you how. Let’s go.

Hey there everybody. This is such an important and such a highly in demand and necessary topic that we’re talking about today. I coach so many people who have a spouse with a pornography problem. It is unfortunately a super common issue today in the world. And I know that if you are that person, if you’re the spouse of somebody and you learned that they have an addiction or a habit of looking at pornography that that feels like your entire world is falling apart.

And Jolene Winn is a coach who has been in that position. She’s been exactly where you are. She’s experienced it herself and she has worked through it and gotten to a place of amazing confidence, peace, empowerment, connection in her marriage. And just she has such an incredible story and she helps other, mostly women but this can happen obviously for men as well. But she works with women who are married to someone who has a pornography addiction or problem. And I cannot wait for you to learn from Jolene. Here we go.

                                                                                                                   

Jody: Jolene Winn.

Jolene: Yes, ma’am.

Jody: I’m so happy to get to know you a little better.

Jolene: I’m so excited about this.

Jody: Good. Good. Me too. Okay, first of all you have the coolest hair.

Jolene: Thank you.

Jody: How long have you worn your hair like this?

Jolene: About three years.

Jody: It’s fantastic. So, everybody listening, you’re going to have to go checkout Jolene’s picture, she has awesome hair. I love it so much.

Jolene: Thank you. I actually did it a weekend when my husband was out of town. And I sent him a picture and I was like, “Hey, do you happen to like this hairstyle?” And he was like, “Yes. Why?”

Jody: Just wondering.

Jolene: Just wondering, just curious.

Jody: Asking for a friend. So, for those of you listening in, she has it shaved on one side and then really long across the top and the other side and it’s just so pretty on you. I love it.

Jolene: Thank you.

Jody: Tell us all about you though, where do you live? Tell us your story.

Jolene: Alright. I live in North Carolina. I am a member of the LDS church, I have been my whole life. My husband and I met when we were going to school, going to college, we both went to Brigham Young University, met our freshman year, it was all very cute, very storybook. And he went on a mission and then he came back and we got married in the temple. And when we had been married for about six years, he came to me and said, “Hey, I have something I need to tell you.” I was like, “Alright.”

He said, “So I have secretly been addicted to pornography but don’t worry, I’m handling it and I don’t want to talk about it.”

Jody: What was your reaction to that? How did you feel about everything?

Jolene: I had two main responses. Part of me was like, okay, this is totally doable. This is not too much for us, we can handle this. And then part of me which was more of a subconscious part. The conscious part was like, we’ve got this. I’m very much a go getter, I’m like, “Alright, let’s tackle this head on. How are we going to do this? You’re going to go to meetings. Can you go to therapy? Let’s have you do all of the things.” And then part of me just was totally crushed and thought, well, what’s wrong with me?

Jody: Yeah, totally. Okay, and that was how long ago?

Jolene: We’ve been married for 13 years.

Jody: Okay. So, seven years ago?

Jolene: There you go.

Jody: I’m so good at math today. It’s not like me.

Jolene: That was impressive. I was doing it in my head. I wasn’t quite there yet. Yeah.

Jody: It’s 13 minus six. Okay, what’s the status of things today for you and your husband? You’re still married?

Jolene: We are still married, yes.

Jody: Yeah, he likes your hair.

Jolene: Yes, he does, yes, he does. He is great and he has actually fully recovered and it is not something he struggles with at all. But that was kind of a long time coming. So, he confessed to me about six years in. And then it was a few more years of relapses before he was able to really get to the bottom of what was driving the addiction and then was able to put it behind him. Meanwhile I kind of led this parallel journey of working through what came up for me. I did that on my own. So, we kind of both healed at the same time but parallel.

Jody: From different wounds.

Jolene: Yes.

Jody: Well, that’s awesome. I appreciate you sharing that, I know that’s private and personal. And I don’t know your husband but I’m appreciative to him for – I mean I don’t know if he knows we’re having this conversation.

Jolene: Absolutely, he loves that I do what I do, this is what I do and he loves it.

Jody: Yeah. So, tell us what you do now, tell us about that part.

Jolene: I would love to share all the things. Okay, so I am now a life coach for women who have a spouse addicted to pornography.

Jody: Wait. I want to interrupt you for a second. Addiction is a word that I used to use all the time whenever someone talked about their spouse looking at pornography. I was like, “Okay, so he’s addicted to pornography.” And then I had a therapist one time say, “Well, for most people looking at pornography it’s not an actual addiction. They’re just looking at pornography. It can head that way and it can have some of the same components.

I’m just curious in most of your clients situations, or do you work with clients whose spouses are looking at pornography? Or are you more specialized in addiction?

Jolene: Both. Really the reason that I use the word addiction is because that’s the language that my husband used when he told me. So, when he told me he said, “I am addicted.” And so that’s just kind of what I went with. I have had clients all over the spectrum. And really the women who I help are – if your husband is looking at pornography, has looked at the pornography in the past and he’s no longer looking at pornography. If you don’t like that. If you have a lot of stuff coming up around that, that’s what I do. That’s what I help with.

Jody: Yes, I love that.

Jolene: Whether it’s technically an addiction or whether it’s a coping mechanism or whatever you call it, the consequences of that or the reactions we have to it are real no matter what you label it as. And so, I help the whole spectrum.

Jody: Okay, I love it. Okay, sorry, go on, so you were saying, that’s what you do now as a coach, you coach women whose husbands are either addicted to or have a pornography habit or problem.

Jolene: Yes.

Jody: And how long have you been doing that, Jolene?

Jolene: So maybe about two years.

Jody: Two years?

Jolene: Two and a half years. So how I started with this is I, it turns out process emotions and retrain my brain very naturally which I did not realize until I was introduced to your podcast through a friend on something completely different. She was like, “Hey, I have this great podcast that I listen to. It’s helped me so much with parenting.” And at the time I was like, “I have five little kids.” And I was like, “Girl, I need help with all the parenting.” So, I started listening to that and I was like, “This makes so much sense.”

I had no idea that I processed things in this type of way, and your podcast and the introduction to life coaching just helped me do it on a much more efficient level. And then I found Brooke and I went through The Life Coach School. And that’s what led me on this trajectory because as my husband and I have started sharing our story which was before I became a life coach, it was shocking to me how many women in the church and not in the church said, “Oh my gosh, me too, we have the same story. We are also dealing with this.”

Because it was kind of this thought that I had in my brain, I don’t know, I guess I’m not a quick learner but it had never occurred to me that I wasn’t the only one going through this. Because it’s kind of a private, like you said, it’s kind of a private thing, it tends to be very hush, hush. And so, it’s not something you hear a lot about. It’s not like people are sharing this all the time. It’s not like when you lose weight and you’re like, “Oh my gosh, this was amazing, I have to tell everyone.” It’s kind of like, let’s not talk about this. And so, I didn’t know anybody that was going through it.

Jody: Yeah. There’s so much shame with this topic. There can be shame for both people involved and shame tells us to hide and not talk about it. And sometimes not talking about it is the appropriate thing. But I think you’re right, it can then make it feel isolating talking about problems is sometimes how we best cope with them, even just to feel like other people are going through it and then of course usually we have suggestions to share with each other. So yeah, I can see where it’s a really isolating challenge.

There are several of them that exists especially within our church but that would definitely be one.

Jolene: Right. And so, it’s not like – this isn’t a class you have in high school or in Young Women’s, that’s like, here’s a list of things you can do. Here’s the resources that exists for let’s say your husband comes and tells you he’s addicted to porn. And so, as we started sharing our story, my husband and I, and all of these women and all of these couples started talking to us about it. It occurred to me that the things that I was doing naturally, not everybody knew how to do. Not everybody knew how to process their emotions.

Not everybody knew how to work through distrust, and feelings of inadequacy, and rejection and all of the betrayal and everything. And so, my husband just kind of looked at me and he was like, “I think you should go do this. And I think you should go help these women.” And so I did.

Jody: That’s awesome. I love it so much, yeah. It’s so needed. Okay, well, let’s dive into some of the tools then that would be helpful for somebody listening who is in this situation, who has a spouse that has disclosed or I would imagine there’s people who are suspicious or know that their spouse is looking at pornography but they haven’t disclosed it. Where do you begin with a client when they’ve first found this out?

Jolene: It’s a great question. The first thing that I always say is that you need to start talking about it. Like you said, our natural, our instinct often is to not talk about it. The shame, it may not even be our shame, but it may just be out of what we feel, it’s not our secret to tell can lead us to want to be silent. And I don’t think you need to go post it on Facebook. But I always recommend that if your spouse is struggling with this, you should be talking to three people. And those three people are number one, your husband, which is not always easy. It’s very difficult.

You can have a lot of awkward conversations and by all means, use a mediator if you need to. But try and get the conversation open about it. The second person is to have one confidant, one friend, whether that’s your mom, or your sister, again you don’t need to tell everybody. But just have one person that knows enough of the situation that when you’re having a terrible day, you can just call and they just know. And you don’t even have to say anything and you can just cry, or vent, or whatever you need to do, just one person.

Because there were so many years, I didn’t tell anybody for years. And there were so many times where I just wished someone knew so that when they said, “Hey, how are you”, I could actually say, “Not great.”

Jody: Right. Because if you say that to anyone else they’re going to go, “Oh, why not?” And then now you’re in a game of like, well, I can’t talk about it. Yeah, so you have that one person, I agree.

Jolene: The one person.

Jody: I agree. I think just venting is a really useful form of coaching or therapy to be honest.

Jolene: A lot of us need it. We just need to get it out.

Jody: Yeah. It’s like I have to get it out of me for a second, sorry, sister, that you have to be the one. But we do it for each other usually, that person in your life that you can trust, that knows that you’re just venting, that you don’t need them to solve the problem necessarily and that they’re not going to run and tell everyone about it. That’s a really important person.

Jolene: Exactly.

Jody: Okay, who’s the third person?

Jolene: And then the third person is a professional. And I say this meaning a professional who’s just for you. So many of my clients have tried couples therapy and they try it for years before they come to me. And they’re like, “I don’t know why this isn’t working.” Well, the problem is, a lot of times they feel like they need someone who’s just for them, someone who’s dedicated to just focusing on them, who isn’t looking at their spouse. We don’t need to look at him, but is just focused on them, is only for them.

Someone who’s just for you so that’s what I always would recommend if someone is brand new to this, or not brand new to this but has been dealing with it for a long time is to start talking about it.

Jody: Yeah, I like that, so I can see that that could be useful if you want to go that route. But I agree, I think having someone, if your spouse is wanting to work on things, your spouse would need someone also for them, a coach, or a therapist, or someone. So, I love that, okay. I’m curious, Jolene, what your experience has been because when I have coached women in this situation I think it’s common for there to be sort of like you described, two different things happening in the brain. One part that’s like if it’s like fight, flight or freeze.

There’s the fight part of us, we’re going to figure this out. Or that wants to believe that in some form. And then there’s the flight or freeze part of us as well. It’s not uncommon for the story to be like you described, what’s wrong with me? Why am I not enough? The other thing I hear a lot with members of the church is, “This is a big deal.” There’s a lot of shock around, I know this happens but I never thought it would happen in our marriage. This is a big deal. There are eternal consequences to this. This impacts our whole family.

Can you talk through some of those stories. And of course, we don’t want to dismiss anything. And I would assume that there’s sort of a grieving process that needs to happen when you wrestle with those stories. But what do you believe about this trial at this point? Is it a big deal?

Jolene: I think it’s tempting for us to make it a bigger deal than it is. Now, I say that not wanting to downplay what it is that we go through, or minimize it in any way. But we tend to dramatize our story.

Jody: And we do this with all problems.

Jolene: With all of them, yes. Yes, we do. But it sounds really important and really real and true especially in the church if it’s moral. We kind of get this, oh my gosh, no, this is really important. And I’m not saying that it’s not, absolutely it is. But one of the things we do is – and I see this with my clients all the time. It’s one of the things we break down first is going back to the facts rather than the story we tell ourselves about the facts. And one of the reasons that I see that women like to do this or one of the reasons that we do this is simply because it validates how hurt we feel.

So, one of the reasons we like to tell ourselves how big and how important this is, is because we feel so hurt, so rejected, all of those emotions that we feel like we need to tell a bigger story in order to justify the emotional pain that we’re dealing with. And all that does is make the emotional pain that we’re dealing with even bigger. So, what I tell my clients is, “What you’re dealing with is already dramatic enough. We don’t have to add to it, making it even bigger. Let’s just deal with what is rather than what we tell ourself about what is.” Does that make sense?

Jody: Yeah, it does. I think this topic of like you said, validation and justification for our pain is an interesting one. Sometimes I have to pause and ask myself because it is a natural human thing to seek validation at times for our pain. Again, that’s why when we talk about having someone that you vent to, that’s why it’s useful because I call that person, I tell my story, they validate me. They say, “That sounds so hard.” And that helps me sometimes just then let go of it and move on.

And this justification for pain, I’m just curious, sometimes I am trying to remind myself, your feelings are valid, they are justified no matter what.

Jolene: Yes. That’s actually the first things I teach all my clients is that your feelings are valid. They don’t need to be justified because they are already valid. We don’t have to add anything to it. So, one of the biggest things to do is to learn and to teach your brain that you don’t have to justify your emotions. Your emotions, whatever it is that you’re feeling are completely valid. I did this when my husband confessed, I felt cheated. That was the emotion that kept coming back to me.

And I kept trying to convince myself that I didn’t feel cheated because he didn’t actually cheat. I was like, he didn’t actually have a physical affair with another human being. I shouldn’t feel this way. This is one of the first lessons I learned was it was okay for me to feel however it was that I felt. My feeling is valid. And I don’t have to justify it, I can just accept it and process it and then move forward. But one of the reasons we like to justify it in this particular case and what I coach on is that it keeps us the victim.

It’s one of the most appealing things about dramatizing our story is that we have a villain. We have someone who did something bad to us and we’re just the victim, the innocent bystander and that’s a very hard story to let go of because our brain thinks that if we let go of being the victim that it means that everything he did was okay, that it’s not that big a deal, that he’s off the hook, all of those things. So, teaching my clients how to separate that, how to separate the addiction from the person, your husband is not his addiction.

So, making those two separate and recognizing that you don’t have to have a villain in order to feel justified in your emotions, it’s a huge thing we work on.

Jody: I love that, yeah. So, let’s talk about victim mentality for just a minute and why it’s so problematic. And you just talked about why it’s so tempting. It lets us perpetuate like you said, the story that someone has hurt us. And it sort of delegates, the way I always think about it, it sort of delegates our emotions to things outside of us. Now, why is that a problem, Jolene, or can it become a problem?

Jolene: This is a problem because then it leaves whether or not we move forward entirely in the hands of another person. This is something that I didn’t understand first about addiction. But one of the things about addiction that you always hear is, okay, well – and this is partly why my initial response was how it was, it was like, okay, he is the addict. He’s the one with the problem. As soon as he takes all the actions then I’ll feel better. Once he goes to therapy, once he goes to 12 Steps, once he – I didn’t even know about 12 Steps at the time.

But once he does all of the things I think he should do, that will solve how I feel because he’s the addict so as soon as he gets his act together we can move forward. And that is one of the biggest lies that I learned how to combat. It’s one of the biggest things that I think women are starting to see. And that, and it’s one of the first things I teach is that with the model he is in how own lane. He is taking his own actions and you are a completely separate person with your own model.

Your feelings are not created by his actions. And thank goodness because then we don’t have to wait for him to get his act together before you start feeling better, before you start moving forward and processing, and stop feeling stuck. Living in a world where your life is revolving around your husband’s actions. Is what we tend to do. When we think that our husband’s actions are the thing that’s creating our feelings then we hyperfocus on what he’s doing.

This is when you get women that are constantly checking his phone, and looking at his phone when he goes to sleep and just can’t get their brain off of what their husband may or may not be doing. They can’t leave the house. This was me. This was whether or not I went on a trip, whether or not I lost weight, whether or not I said yes when he wanted to initiate physical intimacy. All of those things I thought it’s all about try to manage his actions so that I would feel better. But it never works.

Jody: Dang it.

Jolene: I know, if only.

Jody: If only.

Jolene: If only, I know.

Jody: And it’s exhausting living that way.

Jolene: Yeah.

Jody: Yeah, okay. So, I just want to reiterate what Jolene just said because it’s so brilliant. This story that if he would just get his act together and go to rehab, go to whatever, the 12 Steps, get a therapist, stop looking at pornography then this would all go away. You said that’s a lie. I love thinking about it that way. That’s a lie.

Jolene: It’s a lie.

Jody: Because your brain still comes with you.

Jolene: Yes. Yes. And it doesn’t…

Jody: And he probably isn’t going to have a perfect path to recovery so we don’t want to be, like you said, we don’t want to be waiting around for that. Or maybe he doesn’t even think it’s a problem at all. So, at any rate, we want to keep in the power seat. You were going to say something anyway.

Jolene: I was just going to say, part of this comes from this belief that usually what happens is there’s a lot of emotional stuff that comes up, a lot of garbage, a lot of emotional garbage that comes up once we either find out or our husband confesses his pornography habit or addiction, whatever you call it. And so, our brain thinks, the reason this is coming up is because it was created by my husband’s addiction. Therefore, once he stops this will all go away. But the truth is, most of it is just emotional baggage that we’ve just been carrying around subconsciously.

And his addiction is just kind of highlighting it, this is bringing it to the surface. So, whether or not, he could stop watching porn today, you would still have all of those things that got brought to the surface. All that distrust doesn’t just disappear. All of those insecurities don’t disappear. I mean my husband didn’t create my physical insecurities. I’ve had those since I was 11. But his addiction kind of brought them to the surface and we can use that as an opportunity to look at them, and process them, and move forward. Or we can just blame his addiction and stay stuck.

Jody: That’s so powerful, Jolene, I love that. These are just our own insecurities and fears about ourselves, about our bodies, about the world, about relationships in general. This just brings it up to the surface which we don’t like. We’d like to keep it stuffed down there if possible but those things aren’t going away. It’s the same way I think about – and you and I as coaches, I know are sort of crazy people. We want to bring stuff up for ourselves, especially because when it comes up, that’s when you get the opportunity to take a look at it and to finally be rid of it.

So, we’re always trying to bring stuff up and so that’s what a challenge or trial like this does. It’s also why we set really big goals. Becoming a life coach like you did, doesn’t make you feel nervous, or overwhelmed, or whatever. You already had that within you. It’s just you decided to become a life coach. That’s going to bring it all up and then you’re invited to decide. Am I going to just quit this thing or am I going to take a look at this now and unwind some of it? Yeah, that’s so powerful. I’ve never really thought about it that way but I love that.

Which has also been in my mind sort of the gift of a trial like this. I look at some of the things my husband and I have been through and we haven’t had this exact trial but we’ve had other things that I realize now our relationship would not be amazing in the ways it is had we not been forced to look at the things that came up. I never would have looked at, I would have been just left them stuffed down the basement forever. But because through trials they come up, we were forced to then decide, are we going to walk away or be miserable forever?

Or are we going to deal with what’s here now? And then that’s what moves you forward.

Jolene: I love this. And I think you brought something up that is super important and I love how you brought it up. Is the things that we go through in life, some of it is going to be our choice. Some of it is going to be a consequence of something someone else did. But we still get to choose what we do as a result. So that’s something that yes, you didn’t necessarily choose for your husband to be addicted to pornography. However, you still get to decide, okay, well what next? What am I going to do about it? Because it’s not the trial that creates who we are. Our trials are just C’s.

The result that we get is our choice. So, whether or not you choose to look at whatever comes up, you can leave it shoved down, that’s totally fine. But that’s just going to perpetuate and nothing in your life is going to change, your result will not change. And if you want a different result you can totally have it. You just have to decide and then you have to push through all that uncomfortable stuff that comes up. But it’s so much better on the other side because then you’re not carting it around with you for the rest of your life.

Jody: That’s right. And we’re not saying this to minimize anybody’s experience or how challenging it is. I want people to know that this process looks like you allowing yourself all the emotions that your brain offers you, especially in the beginning. And you just process them and feel feelings. And at some time, we can start taking a look at the thoughts creating them and choosing which ones you want to keep. But I love what you said earlier, I just want to reiterate. There is no right or wrong way to think or feel about this.

When I have approached this topic on social media, or on the podcast, or things in the past, I tried to offer some of the thoughts and stories that I think are less available to people. I think there is a handful, especially within our church, this is a big deal, this is our eternal salvation. Those might be the right thoughts for you at times but I like to offer that there are lots of options. And sometimes people take that as me saying, you should think about it this way. I just don’t think that’s true. And I think that’s what I love about, you have been through this, you can relate.

I think sometimes people, when I have coached on this think, well, she doesn’t understand, she doesn’t get it. You get it, you’ve been through it. And also, you’re able to point out that even the way that you think about it now may not be the right way for your client. But what we’re just trying to do is offer options because you have unlimited options. Yeah.

Jolene: Yeah. I love this because this is something I deal with a lot. And again, our brain really struggles with, you know, our brain wants to know that yes, this is a real thing but it wants to make it an overwhelming thing. And when we make something overwhelming it’s very hard to move through it. Our brain just wants to pause and say, “I can’t do this, it’s too hard. There’s no way we’re ever going to get pas this.” And that’s one of the reasons why my husband is so passionate about what I do is because he wants people to know that it’s possible to get through it.

He wants people to know that it is possible to overcome. And I want women to know that it’s possible to have a great marriage even if your husband is still addicted to pornography. And one of the ways that I think is super helpful and I work with my clients a lot on this is understanding the cause, the root of addiction, what’s underneath the pornography addiction and breaking up the lies that we believe about it because I think that brings my clients, they’re able to look at their husband with much more compassion.

And when they’re able to see him with more compassion he’s no longer the villain, my client’s no longer the victim and they can start moving forward.

Jody: And so, you’re saying the cause isn’t that there’s something wrong with the wife?

Jolene: That’s correct. That is a lie.

Jody: I just want to make sure we put that out there. That it’s a total lie, right?

Jolene: It’s a total lie, absolutely.

Jody: You could have the perfect body and be amazing in bed, and whatever all the things are and that would not prevent a possible pornography addiction from your spouse, right?

Jolene: Yes, yes.

Jody: Yeah, okay. Just everyone please hear that. Okay, so you have something, a helpful tool or something to offer our listeners.

Jolene: I have a free three day class that you can sign up for my email. You can go to my website, jolenewinn.com and you sign up for my email list and it’ll just get sent to you, the access to that. And it is where I dive in to how you can start shifting your brain to see yourself as more than a porn addict’s wife. We know how to see ourself as the porn addict’s wife. We’re good at that. We know how to look and see how we are in relation to his addiction. But that is such a small part of who we are.

And we are so much more than that. And so, this training, this three day training is all about helping you see that you are more than that and how to start shifting your mindset so this isn’t how you define yourself in your life.

Jody: Especially for somebody that has been dealing with this for a little while. We start to take it on as an identity, I can see how that would be really toxic. Or for somebody that this is new, I would say if you’re not really sure yet who you trust or who you’re comfortable talking to about this, go to Jolene’s website and just watch this free course. Nobody even has to know.

Jolene: Right, yes. I also have a podcast called The Porn Addict’s Wife. And you can start listening to that too. That’s all free.

Jody: Yeah, okay, I love it. And then if somebody decides that they want to work with you and have you be their coach, how does that work?

Jolene: They just go to my website, jolenewinn.com. I do a lifetime access coaching program. So, we do group coaching calls, you get to direct message me on Slack. I have a whole online course. And again, it’s all designed where I can help you coach you one-on-one. It’s the same model that Jody coaches, so very familiar with that. And we start working on you and you can sign up right away and you get lifetime access.

Jody: I love that you do it in groups because like we talked about earlier, I think seeing other people going through it is really powerful for something like this.

Jolene: So powerful. It’s something I really wanted to do when I started coaching. I knew I wanted that. I knew I wanted a group. But at first I had to spend a couple of years doing one-on-one coaching to get enough people to start doing it in group. And it’s so powerful. I would get so frustrated coaching one-on-one, not frustrated. But I would go to five calls, back, to back, to back, doing the same call over and over.

Jody: Yes, I’ve had that same thing, yeah.

Jolene: Teaching the same thing. And I was like, alright, we’ve got to start this group because these people don’t have any idea, they can go twice as far. And even just logging on to our Zoom calls and seeing the women immediately you know, it’s not just me.

Jody: Yeah. And if you’re feeling uncertain about speaking out or you’re still wanting to hide a little bit, you can get coached by listening to other people get coached. It’s amazing, yeah. Okay, so good. So, Jolene Winn, we’ll put it in the show notes but it’s J-O-L-E-N-E W-I-N-N?

Jolene: Yes, ma’am.

Jody: So, everybody go get all the free resources. If you’re in this situation or you know somebody who is, send them there, Jolene is an amazing coach. Jolene’s also in my Business Minded program. How’s that going?

Jolene: Great. Doing all the scary things, so it’s great, like being on a podcast like this, it’s so exciting. This is the kind of uncomfortable step that you get to do when you start a business.

Jody: Come to Business Minded, we’ll make you scared.

Jolene: So good though, totally worth it, absolutely.

Jody: Totally worth it, the best kind of scared.

Jolene: Absolutely.

Jody: Okay. Well, thank you so much, Jolene, for coming on, I really appreciate your message.

Jolene: Thank you.

                                                                                                                   

Hey there, if you enjoy this podcast or even if you just find that it sort of piques your curiosity, or it makes you think, you’re going to love the book that I wrote. It’s called Better Than Happy: Connecting with Divinity Through Conscious Thinking. And it’s available now at Amazon in print or kindle version. Or if you want me to read it to you, head over to audible and grab the audio version. And why not grab a copy for your sister, your best friend, or your mom while you’re there too. Just saying.