579. Jody and Mark Talk Perfectionism, Authenticity, and Putting Yourself Out There for All to See

If you want to hear an interesting conversation about when erring on the side of perfectionism might be really useful and when it can get in the way and how to monitor it and make sure that you leverage all of your tendencies to create your best life, you’re going to love this episode. If you’re an entrepreneur and you’re trying to create content and you’re struggling to do so, you’re going to love this episode. If you want to be more authentic and you’re wondering, how does that impact your business, but also your marriage and any of your other relationships, you’re going to love this episode. Why does it sound like this is all over the place? Because this is a really authentic conversation I had with my colleague Mark Butler. I’m going to tell you more about that in just a minute, but this is Better Than Happy. Let’s do it.

Welcome to Better Than Happy, the podcast where we apply all the tools of psychology, human behavior, and mindfulness to live our best lives, navigate challenges, and achieve our goals. I’m Jody Moore and I’ll be your coach today. Let’s do it.

Okay, I’ve got good news and bad news. I’m starting with the good news. I am bringing one of my good friends and colleagues who I’ve known for many, many years. I actually met Mark Butler when I was brand new to building my business and he was very integral in helping me really get the business to the point where I could bring my husband in and he was able to leave his job and then really scale pretty far beyond that. He’s brilliant. He’s such a nice guy, great dad, husband, and friend. And I asked him to come on and be a regular co-host here on this podcast with me because I’m so sick of talking to myself and I thought, maybe you’re sick of hearing me talk to myself too.

So Mark and I are going to give this a try for a little bit. We’re going to do a handful of episodes together and we’re going to have a dialogue around certain topics. He’s a coach, he’s an entrepreneur, like I said, he’s a dad and just an all-around good guy. And yet, what I love about Mark is that we don’t see eye to eye on everything. And so I’m hoping it will make for some interesting discussion and help you to decide how you want to think about all the parts of your life.

So let me know if you like these episodes with Mark. If you like hearing us dialogue about things, if you have certain topics that you want to hear us discuss, feel free to send them in. Best way to reach me is to DM me on Instagram, or you can email [email protected] and my team will get that to me. But I would love to hear your feedback. Like I said, Mark and I are going to try this out. I’m going to bring him in for a whole bunch of episodes in a row here, and then we’ll decide, are we going to keep doing that or what’s going to happen next? We’d love for you to help us decide.

The bad news is that after recording today’s episode, because we’re using different software than I’m used to using, I went to upload it and realized that it did not pick up my good microphone. And when I say it, I mean, I did not set it up right, so that it recorded using just my regular mic on my MacBook Pro, which is not a great mic, instead of this really fancy expensive mic. So the sound quality on my end is not great. Mark sounds great. I sound a little echoey.

Now, normally I would re-record that, but I like these conversations with Mark to be really authentic and real. We don’t rehearse, we don’t plan out what we’re going to be saying and I just know I could not recreate that. And I feel like we had a really interesting discussion around some topics that you’re going to really want to hear. So I decided we were going to publish it anyway, much to the dismay probably of my podcast producers who are going to hear this and go, what? Because they like things to be very high quality. They’re going to have to bear with me and I hope that you’ll bear with me and give this episode a listen and then next week we will be back to our higher quality sound. And don’t forget we’re on YouTube and we are publishing all this on video. If you love YouTube like Mark and I both do, we talked about that briefly on this episode. So check it out. Jody Moore and Mark Butler, take one. Let’s do it.

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Jody Moore: One of the things that I do think helps me a lot is my lack of perfectionism. It helps me go a lot faster and get a lot more done. But I see people sometimes who do things the slower, more thorough way and think, I could probably use a little more of that at times. But it’s a balance, I guess. And where do you fall on that continuum?

Mark Butler: I’m a hot mess. It’s hard to figure out how much of it to apply and where because think about how often do you encounter someone who, like, gets the dosage right on that kind of thing? Because in my experience, we kind of tend to operate at ends of a spectrum where it’s like, you have people who seem to be a little bit more methodical and planned and there doesn’t seem to be any low setting on those people. They’re just like, that’s how they do things. And then you have people who like me, where it’s like, and you, where it’s like, okay, let’s sign up for this service. The call’s in two minutes. So two minutes seems like enough time to fill out a registration form and we’ll just do that.

Jody Moore: And shoot the link over to Mark.

Well, yeah. And of course, there is no right answer. So what’s the correct amount? This is what I was thinking about this morning because I have a, a friend that just launched a little business venture. I didn’t even know she was working on, but she’s texted it out to a bunch of us and the webpage was like beautiful and elegant and everything looks so professional and it’s so dialed in and I don’t think she has a single paying customer yet. She just has been working on putting it all together. And I think it’s an awesome idea actually, and I think it will probably do really well.

But I was like, and she made a comment about how scary it is to put it out there or something. And I realized it’s because of the amount of time and effort that she’s put into it, that now, and I’m not saying this is always the case, but then I often see people put it out there like with fingers crossed going, I hope all this time and effort and energy now pays off, whereas I do think if you sort of try something out, let it be sloppy, let it be messy, then you have less of this invested like, and I mean, because it is probably going to have to be modified, right? And it there is going to be a lot of trial and error most likely. And without putting in all that work, it doesn’t feel like your precious baby that then, you know, didn’t work or did work and you kind of can create ultimately what you – but I tend to be and I think, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think you and I are similar this way. I tend to be the type that gets it to like 80% and instead of going back and finishing the last 20% or 10%, I’m just like, it’s good enough. And sometimes like there maybe are some things that it should go back and do at that higher quality level.

Mark Butler: Where I think you get ahead of me in terms of like total output and, you know, kind of just getting stuff into the world is I do get very perfectionistic by solving problems that don’t matter.

Jody Moore: I do that too, actually. Give an example.

Mark Butler: I get to where I’m like, it becomes a puzzle that I feel like I have to solve and I lose sight of the fact that it definitely doesn’t matter. So the stuff I tend to make, it doesn’t necessarily end up being pretty because I’m a perfectionist. It tends to never even get out into the world in the first place because I’m a perfectionist, because the way I tend to do this is with my software that I build. So I’ll go deep into the rabbit hole about like, here’s what the software needs to do, here’s how it needs to do it. And I’ll find my way to these little edge cases that no other human being will ever encounter. But it becomes a Rubik’s Cube that I feel like I have to solve before I can go back to the thing that actually matters.

Jody Moore: Why do you think you do that though?

Mark Butler: I think for me it’s in large part because what I want to do more than anything s solve puzzles. And so it ends up being that when I go deep into that rabbit hole, I’m actually doing the thing that I like doing most. And I completely lose sight of like, but wait, it’s supposed to, not even that it’s supposed to. I lose sight of the fact that when I started this, I intended for people to purchase it and use it and like it. And that’s its job, or at least one of its big jobs. But then I get way over here and like, oh, but this is such an interesting puzzle that I could solve, I have to solve it. And I’ll fall asleep thinking about it and I’ll wake up thinking about it and the weeks will go by and then I will solve it and then it’s like the bubble pops, not like of disappointment or something, but it’s like, I regain consciousness. I’m like, oh right. I solved the puzzle, but no one else cares. Like that was not the, like, remember we were going to make something for people to use and buy and like,

Jody Moore: Do you feel like that’s a poor use of your time though?

Mark Butler: No. And I love that question because it brings me a lot of satisfaction and joy might be too strong of a word, but it really is me being who I want to be. I think something, I’m going to put words in your mouth now, but I think one of the things you appreciate about someone like me is that I am a puzzle solver. But what comes with being a puzzle solver is that I do sometimes overthink and like totally belabor a task or a project way past the point where it could have been very useful to a bunch of other people, but I don’t stop myself and say, I bet this is useful now. I’m like, no, I’m still solving the Rubik’s Cube. So it, it does become sort, it’s cliche to say, but it becomes sort of a strength overused thing where it does get costly to me is if you, like solving, solving puzzles can be profitable, but it’s not necessarily profitable. It has to be combined with promotion, has to be combined with some sort of marketing activity. So people can be like, hey, cool puzzle you solved, that’s helpful to me. I often don’t even get to that point.

Jody Moore: Yeah, but I think like you said, the fact that you enjoy it in some way, it’s fun for you or just scratches an itch for you even is okay too. You know, there’s so much talk in, especially in our world of self-help and anybody who’s creating content and whatever about being authentic, authenticity. And this is sort of reminding me of even something I wanted to run by you because obviously it’s an overused cliche term, but grounded in some valid reasons, right? We appreciate people who are real and we want to feel like we trust what we’re seeing and we connect more, I think with people that seem a little more real and for all those reasons.

But I always question it because I am just not sure what it even means. Like, who am I really? Like, why did I brush my hair today and put on some mascara? Like, that’s not authentic. That’s not what I actually look like, right? So at what point is it authentic enough? And are any of us ever really authentic? Because what does that even mean? And how much of how real am I supposed to get, right? And I know there’s a lot of answers to all that.

But this is something I heard somebody say that I thought made a lot of sense and it speaks to what you’re saying here with you going down a rabbit hole of solving problems versus like, wait, what is my real objective here to sell this thing and help people and make money? It’s like authenticity balanced with strategy. Like, what am I actually trying to do? So if we, if you even think about your personal relationships, right?

Like how authentic are you going to be with your spouse? I’m not going to say to Jake everything that comes to my mind. Like it wouldn’t be kind, but that would be more authentic. We might argue that would give us more opportunity for connection, but nor would I want him to say to me everything probably that comes to his mind, right? And so the strategy in that situation, I guess, in a relationship is like kindness also, and yes, connection and being willing to maybe talk about some difficult things. But I have to like temper my authenticity with my strategy, which makes me think about what you’re saying in business too. The same is going to apply, right?

Mark Butler: I think what you’re saying is really potent. I think it actually becomes something profound because I think the relationship you describe between you and Jake, and the one between me and Kate, we don’t say everything that comes into our head, like you said. We want honesty to be mixed with kindness. As my coaching practice, by the way, has evolved into working more with individuals about their relationships and with couples about their relationships. Something I say a lot is we want to say the, we want to tell the kindest truth without leaving anyone aside. We don’t want to leave the truth aside, we don’t want to leave kindness aside. And so it’s not always simple and it’s nuanced and we get it wrong and we have to repair and it’s all very human.

Something that we, I got from our friend JFF, I mean, she’s your friend, I don’t know her, but I have a parasocial relationship with her. So we’re buddies in my head. The strength of a relationship is the amount of truth it can handle. One of the measures of a relationship’s strength is how much truth it can handle. And so I like that because it pushes us toward truths that might be scary to share, but then having shared them, if the relationship can, again, I think the way she would say is if the relationship can metabolize that new truth, if it can handle it, then the relationship has gone to a different level of closeness and intimacy.

And I think that principle applies, not in the same way, but equally to intimate relationships like husbands and wives and to business relationships like seller and buyer. So the question of authenticity, I think, as you pointed out, it’s like, it’s almost impossible. You’d never be able to define it. I think it’s a felt thing where you kind of feel whether you’re telling the truth, you know what I mean? Like when I’m not being honest, I feel it. And dishonesty isn’t always stating something that is factually incorrect. It’s this continuum of knowing I’m holding something back because I’m scared to share it, whether with audience of perspective buyers or with a spouse or with a friend or with a family member or whatever, you feel it and it doesn’t feel good.

Jody Moore: I want to ask you this question because I wanted to, you know, take it to people who are creating content, like any of our coaches or entrepreneurs, right, who are creating content. And this becomes the big question, right? It’s like, how much do I need to share and how real and authentic do I need to be? And I think, I mean, I’m sure we probably think similarly on this that it’s like, if it doesn’t help your client, you don’t need to share it. I’m always telling my coaches, like, we’re not trying to be influencers.

And an influencer business model is an entirely different business model. I do need a lot of attention, a lot of followers so that anyone who wants to use me to do affiliate marketing will see that I have a lot of influence, I have a big following. So I may share, depending on what products I’m going to offer, I may share my home and my children and my clothes and whatever else, right? But as a coach, I’m not trying to be an influencer. I’m simply trying to get my message out, maybe generate leads or whatever. But I’m trying to be a coach. Ultimately, it’s a different business model, right? And so if I – I can share anything I want to, but if I’m sharing stuff about my personal life that doesn’t help draw in my potential client, it’s kind of a waste, other than maybe getting me some attention, maybe telling the algorithm that people are following me, right? So there’s that. But back to authenticity a little bit, do you follow Alex Hormozi at all?

Mark Butler: I am currently on a Hormozi kick. The algorithm is giving me Hormozi constantly.

Jody Moore: I don’t know what you think of Alex Hormozi, but…

Mark Butler: It depends on the day.

Jody Moore: Yeah, same here. And it depends on what he’s talking about. I like a lot of what he says and I don’t like love all what he teaches. But anyway, that’s not the point. The point is last, was it like maybe six months ago, maybe a little longer, did you see when he had Tony Robbins on his show?

Mark Butler: Oh no.

Jody Moore: Okay, so it was so fascinating. Tony Robbins was doing some kind of a launch, so he was going on all the podcasts, like, you know, he was on a tour basically. So he goes on Hormozi. Actually, Hormozi flies to him and they do the interview in person in Tony Robbins’s huge mansion or whatever. But anyway, Tony being the master coach that he is, ends up coaching Alex more or less in a really unique way because Alex being this kind of tough, like very strategy-based, everyone should be working longer, harder hours. I don’t know why you’re not pumping out more content. You know, that is kind of his brand, if you will.

And Tony kind of gets in there a little bit and starts toying with like some deeper motivation and says to him in a very respectful way after really praising Alex and really building him up, he kind of says something like, you will never be fulfilled if you don’t find some a more heart-centered reason to do what you’re doing. Because you already know how to make a lot of money, you’ve made a lot of money. And Alex kind of brought it up saying like, you know, they donated a bunch of money to charity and he’s like, I feel like I should feel good about this, but I just felt like, well, there goes a million dollars. And he was kind of asking Tony, so he opened the door to it and Tony was like, you have to find something.

Like Tony Robbins’ thing is about addressing world hunger because of his experience as a kid when they didn’t have enough food. So he’s fed like, I don’t know how many millions of people and that’s kind of what drives him along with making money. So anyway, he breaks Hormozi down in this way where Alex is like, he’s feeling vulnerable and he’s kind of giggling a little bit and it’s just like a whole another side of him that I had never seen. And everybody in like my business mastermind was talking about it and going, did you see that Hormozi interview? Like, holy cow. And it was great and he aired it, Hormozi put it on his channel and then a month or two later, he pulled it down.

Mark Butler: Oh, he took it down.

Jody Moore: Yes. And I think you can still find it. I know there’s…

Mark Butler: Plot twist.

Jody Moore: Well, there’s other people out there who have access to it and have published it. Like you can find it, but Hormozi took it off of his channel and I don’t know the reason why, but…

Mark Butler: Come on.

Jody Moore: The rumors, I’ll tell you the rumors I’ve heard. What do you think?

Mark Butler: Okay, but you and I are both going to have an opinion and we’re just going to say it because who cares? But you go ahead.

Jody Moore: Well, like it went against his whole brand of just work because he even says like, you know, his whole thing about how you have to hustle and you have to grind and you have to work harder and Tony Robbins is like, no, F that. That’s no way to live your life. And it just, I feel like he showed a side of him that he doesn’t normally show. It went against his whole message and his whole brand. But it was the most real I’ve ever seen Alex Hormozi and he looked vulnerable. He was very still likable, but it just completely went against his branding and his image that he’s putting out there.

Mark Butler: 100%. If we’re going to frame it in like relationship terms, it was too intimate for Alex. His relationship with whether it’s his audience, his idea of himself could not accommodate that level of truth. So he rejected it. He found a business reason to reject it, but he rejected it.

Jody Moore: Oh, that’s interesting.

Mark Butler: He couldn’t be like, I cannot be this knowable in this context. And I honestly, I don’t, I can’t criticize that. I do the same thing. I think everyone does the same thing, but it is such a plot twist that he took it down because it’s such an intimate thing to be knowable to that number of people in that way. If he took it down, it’s, in my opinion, it’s because he could not handle that level of intimacy.

As I’ve watched Alex over the years and I kind of come and go, the algorithm, I’m, YouTube, I, I live on YouTube. I love YouTube so much. The algorithm is giving me a lot of hormozi right now. And I watch him as a person who’s business interested, I watch him as a person who’s a coach, I watch him as a person who works with people on their relationships. And when I watch a lot of Alex Hormozi, I’m like, this guy is talking out of both sides of his mouth and he doesn’t even know it. And what I mean by that is, you know me, I have a cynical streak that runs through me and I can be a little bit suspicious of people, especially like big name marketer types.

So I, I have kind of a cynical view that I’ll bring to when I’m engaging with their content or whatever. Even with my cynicism, I’ve never personally tracked Alex as someone who has any bad intentions whatsoever. He does not strike me as a person who wants to deceive, who wants to take people down a bad direction. I’ve never read that in him, whatever my opinion is worth. I’ve never experienced him that way. But he lands in this tension between pretending that nothing matters at all. He has a very, like, you’ve heard the term nihilist or nihilism? He will pretend to sort of a nihilistic view, like, well, nothing matters anyway, we’re all going to die, nothing matters. But then he will say, well, if you want to like have a big impact or if you want to do everything that you possibly can do. And it’s very contradictory.

And for me, the tension between those things seems to be what Tony Robbins found, which is like, you’re not telling yourself the truth. And you’re not willing to, if you bump up against the truth, you’re certainly not willing to share it with people at large. And again, I can’t criticize him because, you know, he has an audience of millions, I have an audience of 27. I’m doing the same thing.

Jody Moore: I’m not saying this in a critical way either. I do think it’s difficult because he, we all have stuff we’re working out and figuring out and you don’t have to air that for everybody to see. There’s nothing that you owe your audience any of that. And I think it’s totally fair to want to work that out on your own behind the scenes. So, yeah, this is not in criticism. It’s just, I don’t know, it’s just going to be really fascinating because I, I think the video performed very well.

Mark Butler: Well, I actually love that you just said that. And it wasn’t already on my mind, so I’m glad you said it because I don’t think authenticity or honesty require us to like lay ourselves bare in the public forum all the time. And I don’t expect that of a creator. I don’t even expect that of influencers whose profession, I think I don’t want to say this with some care because I don’t want to say it, I don’t want it to sound wrong. I think the profession of influencing has a natural bias in it toward inauthenticity and toward dishonesty. It doesn’t mean the people are dishonest or inauthentic. It means the nature of the work they do sort of leans on them in that direction because it’s so appearance driven. But even in that case, I don’t expect them to lay bare their entire person, their heart and their soul online in service of some idea, you know, in service of Mark Butler’s definition of authenticity, whatever that is. You know what I mean?

Jody Moore: Yeah, I agree. And to somebody who’s brand new and this is kind of leading me to the other topic I want to talk about today, by the way, which is kind of organic content and networking versus paid ads, which I know is very different, but I want to talk about that. But first, to the person listening to this who might be new to putting content out for whatever reason, probably to build a business, I think and I’d love to hear your thoughts on this, but I think it’s natural to feel so awkward, sound awkward, look awkward, and I think with that voice in your head going, you got to be real, you got to be authentic, everybody wants you to be yourself. It’s like nearly impossible to do in the beginning because you are pretending to feel like you know what you’re talking about.

You probably do – hopefully you know somewhat what you’re talking about in the subject area. But you feel like you’re pretending, you feel like a fraud. You’re if you’re not used to seeing yourself on video, making videos, hearing your own voice, all of that is very alarming until you get used to it. And so I would say don’t worry about authenticity or if you want to be authentic, the most authentic thing I think you can do in the beginning is go, I feel like such an idiot right now. I don’t even know if I’m doing this right and just like kind of call out your own insecurity a little bit. Not much because it shouldn’t be about you anyway, it’s about the person you’re trying to serve. But I think the most authentic thing you can do is just name your insecurity.

Mark Butler: I like how you just said that. So I have a question for you then along those lines. Do you not get in your head anymore at all around content creation, around how you look? Because I produce so little content. Like I, I produce so little content relative to what would honestly feel more authentic, it would feel more honest to me in terms of my desire if I published a lot more content, but I get really hung up and I don’t publish that much content. I think for a lot of reasons, but one of them is, I just don’t think I’ve totally resolved the conflict you’re describing in my own head. I don’t don’t think I’ve done it. I think if I had done it, I would publish a lot of stuff.

Jody Moore: Conflict of like feeling like you don’t look right, sound right, say the right thing, et cetera? Is that what you’re referring to?

Mark Butler: I mean, I think I have probably the normal amounts of like hating the sound of my own voice and which, I don’t know that I’ve ever encountered anyone who’s like, I love hearing my voice recorded. I hope they’re out there. I hope they’re having a wonderful life. I’ve never met them. So I struggle with the sound of my own voice. I struggle with my mannerisms. I hate watching video of myself. I’ve never had anyone, including my wife who is a very honest reviewer of Mark Butler. She’s never been like, she’s never pointed to those things, but I can’t handle watching myself on video for the most part.

Jody Moore: That’s interesting.

Mark Butler: A big thing for me though goes back to that intimacy piece, which is like, I hate the idea. This is so absurd. I hate the idea that what I say into this microphone kind of lives forever. And it gets to me, which is weird. We could we could we could diagnose me later. But that’s one of the pieces for me where I’m like, no, no, it can exist for 24 hours and then it needs to be deleted. That’s why I’m not criticizing Hormozi. Like, I get it.

Jody Moore: For me it’s a little different. I, well, first of all, and again, this is for anybody listening who maybe is starting out in this game. You know the first time you hear your voice recorded, it’s probably as a kid even. I don’t know what age, but and you think, what? That’s not what I sound like. It doesn’t even sound like how you hear your own self, right? Do you feel like though, because now you’ve heard yourself recorded a lot, does it sound the same to you as it does in your own head? Or does it still sound different?

Mark Butler: To me, it still sounds different enough.

Jody Moore: Different enough. Okay. Because I feel like I can’t really tell the difference now. It sounds the same to me, my recorded voice versus what I hear in my head, which is bizarre, but I still am highly critical of it. Especially, like I can’t listen to myself on normal speed. I can listen to myself on like double time speed.

Mark Butler: Same. That’s funny you say that.

Jody Moore: Little bit smart there. Normal speed, I sound like an idiot to my own self.

Mark Butler: Like, dude, hurry up. That’s what, when I – I’ll like record a podcast of my own and then I will edit it. And when I’m editing, if I play it at 1X speed, I’m like, this guy is the most boring person walking this planet.

Jody Moore: Yeah, me too.

Mark Butler: And then when I, and then if I speed it up to 2X, I’m like, oh, this isn’t so bad.

Jody Moore: That’s pretty good. That’s pretty good actually. Pretty good points. The worst is when my husband’s – my husband uploads all of our recordings from my coaching program. And so he’ll be like on his laptop in the next room and he’s uploading the video and so it just plays the very beginning and I hear myself go, hello everybody, or just something…

Mark Bultler: No, no, no.

Jody Moore: Oh, that lady’s voice. But when I…

Mark Butler: You’re like, Jake, we’ve talked about this, headphones, headphones.

Jody Moore: Seriously, turn the volume off. But seeing myself on video is next level painful, right? Where all, all your little mannerisms, for me it’s like playing with my hair and touching my face and whatever else that I don’t even realize I do until I see myself on video and then I have all the thoughts about it. But it’s a similar for me experience where I’ve had to watch it enough times that I’m getting more used to it. But this is what gets me.

You talk about your voice being recorded forever. This is so shallow and petty, but this is just the way my brain works. So we’re being real for a minute. Is I think to myself, okay, five years from now, hairstyles are going to change, makeup’s going to change, clothing’s going to change. Like even just the physical part of it, I know I’m going to look back just like I look back at the videos I did five years ago. And go, what was I thinking with those big old lashes and that my hair was all bleached and breaking off and like, what were you thinking?

But I know I’m going to do that in five years. I’m going to be like, what were you doing with those hair extensions and whatever else? And I’m constantly thinking like, how do I have a, like a, how do I be more timeless so that I don’t have to criticize myself later? It’s not going to happen, I don’t think. So I’ve kind of been working on when I do see those past videos or images of myself of redirecting to like, okay, but that’s the girl that has recorded a podcast every week for the last 10 years. And right there in that video you’re watching, she’s in year five of it and she’s going to keep going. And don’t you want to kind of thank her?

Because she also kind of hooked you up because now you get to go to the beach with your kids a lot. And like, okay, yeah, maybe, maybe she had some poor choices in personal style, but isn’t there a lot more also grateful to her for? And I’m not trying to do it in a cheesy like, I just love all myself. No, I still have tons of criticism, but there’s also a lot to be grateful for. And I’m trying to do that rather than, you know, figure out how to not have that judgment in the future.

Mark Butler: To whatever degree this is relevant, the other day Kate and I were talking about that for some reason we were talking about the pressure, especially the pressure on women. It’s very cliche to say and I’m a dude and so I’m not going to pretend to understand this. But Kate was reminding me again that there’s a different level of pressure on women to look a certain way, to age a certain way, and that women get treated much more harshly in the public space than men do, especially as we age. But I also like what you’re saying because um, you remind me of, there, I don’t know why, there’s a picture jumped to my mind of me and Kate, we were on a cruise. Now it’s funny about being on a cruise because we hate cruises. And that’s probably why this is such a vivid memory, but there’s a picture of us on a cruise and I see myself in that picture and it’s not great. I mean what’s funny is I was about to say I was really overweight. I definitely weighed less in that picture than I do right now. So that’s fine.

But I look at the picture and I look overweight relative to the image I have in myself of probably like being an 18-year-old kid who’s playing varsity sports in high school. And so I’m like, oh, he’s overweight. It’s not great. Like it’s not a great look. But with enough time that passes, I can look at him and be like, that guy right there was going through it. I remember that time of life. I remember what was difficult about it. I remember why we were on the cruise. And we were on the cruise because a friend had basically gifted it to us. We were escaping our children who were very young at the time. Our daughter has special needs, it’s a whole thing. And I look at him, like that guy was, that guy was deep in it and he really was trying so hard at the time. So to me that’s a version of what you’re saying with like having gratitude for that past version of you.

I think there’s also a lot of room for compassion for that past version of you where you’re like, it’s cliche to say and I fight this phrase of like they were doing their best or they’re doing their best. The version of it that I can kind of handle is that guy was really trying. He was giving an effort and it was really tough. And so I can get to, I can get to compassion and like appreciation. And it’s actually helpful for me, for me to say that here because I think I could bring that to content creation, I would probably start making more content.

Jody Moore: And because that thought, like whether it’s about yourself or about anybody else that, you know, some, sometimes in coaching, I’ll offer that to my clients, but for some people it’s helpful, to some they completely reject it that he or she is doing their best or you were doing your best at that point. And I think it was my dad I was having this conversation with when I said, yeah, but everybody’s just doing the best they can. He says, no, they’re not. Everybody’s not doing the best.

Mark Butler: I say it all the time. They’re not doing their best, but that’s okay. Doing your best is kind of impossible. So, but they’re definitely trying and they have no bad intentions probably anyway.

Jody Moore: Well, here’s the thing that it comes down to is we don’t know what anyone’s best is, really. We don’t know, there’s no true way to assess that someone was doing their best. So it’s an, it’s a moot point in the end. I think the reason again, whether you’re thinking about yourself in your past, you’re looking at somebody else who you’re frustrated with in your own life, the point is to shift your mind away from focusing on something you can’t control, which is yourself when you were on that cruise five years ago, or this other person in your life who doesn’t seem to be asking you how they think you should, how you think they should behave, to shift your brain away from that over to what is yours to control, which is like, okay, so what do I want to do about this? Or, or what am I going to do today instead of what did I do wrong in the past?

So it’s meant to just redirect your brain away from like, let’s stop spinning on how bad that person was or is and let’s start focusing on what we do have control over, which is today going forward. That’s the whole point of the thought. But if that thought doesn’t do that for someone, right? If it causes you to drum up this whole argument about how they’re not doing their best, then it’s not useful. It’s just, okay, but the past is in the past. We don’t have a time machine.

Okay, so I don’t think we’re going to get to today, the organic versus paid marketing because I have a lot of, I just want to hear your insight. I think we have kind of different views on this topic, although probably lots of overlapping too. And I want to give it plenty of time. So I think….

Mark Butler: I’m actually excited to talk about that because I don’t know how much overlap we have.

Jody Moore: Maybe not.

Mark Butler: And as we’ve talked about doing this, I thought, I really want to talk to Jody about paid ads for coaches because it’s kind of a place where I’ve kind of screamed into a megaphone and I’m like, well, I want to hear the other view because I haven’t heard the other view in a while. Anyway.

Jody Moore: Yeah, I think we do have kind of opposite thoughts about it and I think it’s an important topic and it’s ever changing and I think it’s, yeah, I also want to steal some of your thoughts as well. So let’s do that next time. Shall we?

Mark Butler: We shall.

Jody Moore: Because I want to give it plenty of air time.

Mark Butler: I just want to like echo one thing you said earlier that’s sticking in my head as useful to me, is when you said when you have people who are trying to get any sort of venture going online, coaching or whatever else they’re doing, they’re trying to figure out how to make content, publish it, which crazy, it’s crazy to me that I’ve kind of been around in this world for over 20 years now. That’s so interesting. This idea of content creation and publishing, it has evolved, but never, like, it’s never stopped being true.

I think that’s so fascinating that if someone were starting today and it’s like, well, how do you, how do you grow the thing that you want to grow? I think it’s still some of the best advice you can get to be like, you should make a bunch of content. And I say that even as a person who has always for 20 years struggled to do that in any quantity, but it still seems to be one of the best things to do.

But I like how you said people could acknowledge their insecurity. I would extend that because I agree with it. I would extend it to one way that they can acknowledge their insecurity is just by using phrases like, here’s what I’m learning that I’m excited about. Here’s what I’m studying. Here’s what I just discovered. And it, it takes them from the position of maybe pretended authority, which might not feel authentic to them and might not be authentic to them, to be sort of a fellow learner who’s a couple of steps ahead of the person who’s watching the video or reading the whatever. It’s like, here’s something I’m learning or studying that I’m excited about and that I’m testing and experimenting with. To me, it diffuses all the inauthenticity as soon as you position yourself as kind of the fellow traveler instead of the, the guru at the top of the mountain.

Jody Moore: And I think is it Gary V that’s always preaching this? He’s like, instead of creating or teaching, just document what you’re doing. Just as you’re learning, I always tell this to my coaches when they’re going through coach training. I’m like, start making videos right now and say things like, today in class, we learned about this and it was really fascinating and you get the reps in, first of all, because it really is just about putting in reps and you get more used to it. But people are interested in learning alongside us many times. And that does help with that imposter syndrome.

Back to Hormozi and then we’ll think of final thoughts to wrap this up. But I heard Hormozi say this about imposter syndrome. He’s like, if you feel like you have imposter syndrome, you just need to be more honest. That’s it. Imposter syndrome is like, I feel like I’m lying and pretending. So if you feel like you’re pretending to be an expert and you don’t feel like an expert, how do you be a little bit more honest, which is exactly what you said. I’m excited about this thing that I’m learning right now, or this thing that I just learned yesterday and I’m thinking about it. And you just get more honest, which I thought was a pretty good answer.

If you’re putting out an offer, let’s say it’s the first time you’ve offered some kind of a program or a challenge or whatever and it’s, and you feel that imposter syndrome, maybe you want to say to people, hey, this is my first time doing this. So guess what? There are going to be some mistakes probably. I’m going to have to go back and fix things. The benefit to you is, and there’s always a benefit to being in the first round, either it’s I, you’re going to get more intimate attention from me, you’re going to get it at a lower price, you’re going to get it for free because I need to test it. But a lot of people are, it’s the reason people go to the hair school where my daughter’s learning to do hair because they’re down for it. They know it’s she’s learning and they want the discounted price. So I just thought that was a nice, simple way to think about it. Just be a little bit more honest. And which goes back to authenticity. Look at that.

Mark Butler: Killer callback. Nice work.

Jody Moore: What are your parting thoughts that you want to share?

Mark Butler: So speaking of content creation, it’s funny we’re talking about this because I’m literally in the thick of trying to persuade myself to actually start doing this very regularly. Something that with the amount of content I have published is what you find is that nobody’s thinking about you as much as you’re thinking about you. Whatever you say that you think is, I’ve had plenty of experiences where the next day I think I was so over the top, that was so ridiculous, that was so stupid or whatever, it rarely was.

And even if it was, almost nobody’s thinking about it the next day. If they were, that would be the best news because it would mean that it’s not almost impossible to get anyone to pay attention to you in 2026, which it is. So there’s comfort in that. There’s comfort in the fact that like, yeah, it’s really hard to get people to pay attention to you. So if you say something stupid, stakes are pretty low actually.

But also, I’ve noticed myself more and more consuming content lately that is super unpolished and not being bothered by the lack of polish at all. In fact, kind of liking it. And so if any of us are feeling pressure to get really polished or perfect before we hit record and publish, this is mostly for my own benefit. I think it’s okay to just not do that. I think it works really well, actually.

Jody Moore: I do too and I think, like I said before, I think putting in the reps is the way that you’re going to figure out your own style, what works for you. Yes, a little bit what lands in the algorithm and what other people like too, but it’s more like just getting over your own drama and figuring out a routine and, you know, you see people who are in the same spot every time. What’s the dude’s name? Jefferson, somebody or other, who was like a…

Mark Butler: Oh, Kate talks to me about this dude nonstop. She’s like, just Jefferson, the Jefferson guy. I want to punch that guy in the face. He better hope we never meet in public. I don’t know what his name is. Stupid Jefferson that my wife won’t stop talking about.

Jody Moore: Well he’s smart, he’s good. You’d like him actually.

Mark Butler: He’s so good. I know he is.

Jody Moore: I don’t know what he’s doing now, but for a long time, every video was just in his car. He’s like sitting behind the steering wheel recording every over and over again. So he discovered that’s what works for him. That’s the place where he can do it. That’s when he can gather his thoughts or whatever. He has a minute alone. And when you find something like that or something that people respond to and like, all of it gets easier. And so putting in the reps is the only way you’re going to find that. You’re not going to research that. ChatGPT is not going to be able to give you that. No but you’re not going to think your way into that kind of a rhythm. I just don’t think.

And so just start and this whole fear that we have over what if, you know, that my former coworker who I was really intimidated by sees it or what if my cousin who thinks this is stupid sees it or whatever. I always say, don’t worry, they’re not going to see it. No one’s going to see it.

Mark Butler: Good news, bad news, no one is going to see it.

Jody Moore: At first. And like you said, okay, when I say in this mic lives forever, yeah, but somebody would have to really go do some digging to find it and they’d have to have a real reason to want to and the stuff I recorded even last year, nobody cares about anymore. So, anyway.

Mark Butler: It’s really hard for me to believe that, but it’s, but it’s one of those, I’ll tell my clients, if you could get yourself to believe that, it would unlock a lot, wouldn’t it? And that’s true for me in this case. If I could get myself to believe what you just said, it would unlock so many things, so many positive things for me.

Jody Moore: This is going to be a great segue into our next topic because I have so many things I want to pick your brain on it and…

Mark Butler: About paid ads?

Jody Moore: Paid versus organic and even like what we might call networking or relationship building.

Mark Butler: Yeah, totally. Awesome.

Jody Moore: Thanks, Mark.

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