269. Conquering Pornography with Zach and Darcy Spafford

I’m Jody Moore and this is Better Than Happy episode 269: Conquering Pornography with Zack and Darcy Spafford.

Welcome to Better Than Happy. I’m your host, Jody Moore. I’m a mother to four children. I’m a huge Taylor Swift fan, and I’m a Master Certified Life Coach. I’m here to teach you how to manage your brain and manage your emotions so that you can create a life that’s even better than happy. Are you ready? Let’s go.

Hello everyone, welcome to episode 269. I am very excited to share Zack and his lovely wife Darcy with you today on the podcast. So I’m going to tell you just a couple of things that are important to know. Zack and Darcy are clients who I have had the honor and privilege of working with in the past. They have come to my week long in person Be Bold Masters event. They came together, just awesome, so much fun, can’t wait till we can do that again. They also have a whole bunch of children and amazing full life.

And Zack after coming to my week long event decided to go through coach training. And so he is now a certified coach who has a full coaching practice. He specializes in helping individuals who want to overcome their use of pornography, but he coaches on a lot of other things. I’m actually working with him in my Coach Incubator program right now. And he’s coaching clients on all kinds of things.

So I am so appreciative of Zack and Darcy for being willing to come on and share their story. This is a vulnerable story for them to share, it’s a sensitive topic. And for any of you listening I want you to know that I understand that this is a sensitive and emotional topic. And I hope that you’ll take the things that we talk about here, take the parts that are useful to you and anything that’s not, you don’t have to take. That’s the beautiful thing about thoughts, we get to the pick the ones we want and we get to leave the ones we don’t want.

Okay, so I thought it was so helpful to have Zack and Darcy share their experience in their journey, that doesn’t mean it should be your journey. That doesn’t mean your experience should go the same way. So again, I know you’re going to get so much out of this. And even if you or someone close to you doesn’t have a pornography challenge, I want you to listen to the way they approach the challenges and the problems, the things that they did that didn’t work and the things that did work, because I promise you’ll be able to apply that to anything that you’re going through, any trial.

So if you don’t ever have trials, you never have and you don’t think you ever will then don’t bother listening. But otherwise listen up, get ready to take some notes, here we go.

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Jody Moore: So Zack and Darcy Spafford, I’m so excited to have you guys on the podcast today to share your story. So let’s begin with introductions, tell us a little bit about who you are and why you’re here. Let’s see if you know.

Zack Spafford: Ladies first.

Darcy Spafford: So we are Darcy and Zack and we’ve been married for 17 years and we have eight loving children.

Zack Spafford: As I like to say, only eight.

Darcy Spafford: Yeah.

Jody Moore: Eight’s a lot, you guys we need to talk about that later.

Darcy Spafford: Yeah. We have, well, I feel like it’s conquered our biggest struggle in our marriage and that was pornography and it feels pretty amazing.

Zack Spafford: Yeah. I think for me, if the question is why are you here? And why are you doing this? When I was eight years old I started looking at pornography. And then for the next 25 years I was living this life where I thought I am a terrible person and I’m not getting to where I want to be. And if I could just get over this one thing then I would be so much more amazing. And for 25 years I struggled and I struggled, and I went to 12 step meetings, and I went to counselors, and I went to bishops.

And I did everything that I could to solve this problem and none of it worked. And then about three, four, five years ago now, I took a step back from all that. I stopped going to 12 step meetings, I stopped going to counselors. I still worked with my bishop but it was more of like, “This is what I’m doing,” not, “Hey, can you help me?” And I started to look at my brain and I was like what is going on in here that I am not yet solving?

And then for the next, probably five years, it’s a constant working progress, but I’ve been free from pornography for about five years now. And I just started to look at my brain and figure out what is it that’s causing this and why is it causing this?

And then about two years ago Darcy started listening to your podcast. And she would come to me and she’d be like, “Hey, you know that thing that you used to stop looking at pornography, Jody’s just taught me about that on the podcast, only she was talking about food.” And I was like, “Yeah, that’s how it works, I didn’t know that’s what you’d call it, but that’s how it works.”

Jody Moore: Yeah, that’s right.

Zack Spafford: And then last year the week before Mother’s Day, we came and hung out with you for a week in Spokane.

Jody Moore: That was fun.

Zack Spafford: And we left there going, “Yeah, this is exactly what we need to do.” And we got fired on Mother’s Day from our other job.

Jody Moore: Wait, wait, wait. You got fired; did you both work at the same place?

Zack Spafford: Well, I got fired.

Darcy Spafford: We got fired, we got fired.

Zack Spafford: When I say we, I mean us.

Jody Moore: Right, okay, I just wanted to clarify.

Darcy Spafford: I mean I spend the money, he earns it.

Jody Moore: Right. And you’re doing some things at home too. Okay, I just want to clarify, so you got fired, did you see that coming?

Zack Spafford: Darcy always sees things coming, but I was like, “Well, I mean it is what it is, it’s going to happen or it’s not going to happen.” I never – I was just doing what I could. We were working with our best friend who we love them still, and they fired us because unfortunately their business took a dive and they couldn’t afford me.

Jody Moore: So they laid you off.

Zack Spafford: Well, yeah. Yeah, I mean I wasn’t a bad person.

Jody Moore: It’s not like you were stealing money out of the till and you got fired.

Zack Spafford: No. But it was this moment where all of a sudden everything kind of came together and it was, you know, because as we had driven home from Spokane, we drove to St. George from Spokane and that, you know, I think it was 13 hours.

Jody Moore: That’s a heck of a drive, yeah.

Zack Spafford: Right. And so we had plenty of time to talk about what we were going to do with the things that we’d learned and what we were going to do with our business and everything. And we were like, “Okay, we’ll take this cautiously. We’ll figure this out as we go. We’ll keep working where we are now. But we’ll also save up and go to The Life Coach School and all that.” And then I got fired that very next day, we got home early in the morning, I went to church.

I went over to hang out with my best friend, because this is St. George, so it’s on the way home from church. And he’s like, “I can’t keep you.” And I was like, “Well, okay.” And that day I come back and I’m totally freaking out and it’s Mother’s Day and I go down in the basement, I’m like, “I’ve got to work.” And she of course is like, “What, it’s – get up here.” And the next morning, because I didn’t want to tell her that day, I know a little bit about HR, you don’t tell people bad news on a holiday.

Jody Moore: You don’t give the news that you lost your job on Mother’s Day.

Zack Spafford: Yeah.

Darcy Spafford: That’s a bad Mother’s Day gift.

Jody Moore: Yes.

Zack Spafford: So the next morning I’m like, “I don’t have a job anymore. We are going to be going to Life Coach School now and we’re going to take money out of our 401(k). And we’re going to sell our house and everything that comes along with creating something amazing.” And that’s what we did.

Jody Moore: And you went all in.

Zack Spafford: And that’s why we’re here.

Jody Moore: I love it. And I’ve got to say this, so I was fortunate enough to get to be your instructor at The Life Coach School when you went through coach training. And you’re an amazing coach, you were right away. Of course I give myself the credit for it, I’m like it’s because he came to Be Bold Masters and he’s been listening to me. But it really wasn’t me, it was all you. And you’re an amazing coach and I am not surprised at all at the success you’re having. And I know you’ll have a lot more to come, so such a fun story.

Okay, so long story short though by the way, for people listening, let me back up. The reason Zack and Darcy were in Spokane hanging out with me is because I love them, but also they came to Be Bold Masters. I didn’t know them very well before then. They came to Be Bold Masters which is an in person event that I hope to be able to do again as soon as stupid Covid wraps it up. And then now you are a life coach who specializes in helping men dealing with a pornography struggle, yes?

Zack Spafford: Absolutely.

Jody Moore: And I asked Zack and Darcy if they wouldn’t mind coming on because I know this is a challenge for a lot of people and it’s a difficult subject to talk about. And I’m so appreciative to them for being willing to share because this is vulnerable for both of you, I know. I know these are emotional topics and this is your marriage and your life. And so I’m just so appreciative of you because I know it will help so many people. And then also both of them are very familiar with the tools I teach and then of course Zack being a coach is going to give us his insight too.

So I’m excited for this episode. Let me ask just a few questions, Darcy, when you and Zack got married did you know that he was dealing with a pornography struggle?

Darcy Spafford: I knew that he struggled with masturbation. And I knew that he had seen pornography in the past, but I didn’t know that it was an active thing that was happening. And about three weeks after we were married was when the first discovery came out. And I remember very distinctly I just found him looking at some bikini pictures on the internet, nothing huge. And I remember the weight that I felt in that moment. And then at that point he disclosed a little bit about a struggle that he was having and that started it.

And then nothing for, I would say what, until 2008 was – so we got married in 2003, so 2008 was when all the crap hit the fan, is what I would call it. And then it went from there.

Jody Moore: Okay. And so what was that like for you, just learning that, discovering that, can you share with us what that experience was like?

Darcy Spafford: It was pretty much the worst thing I could even imagine would happen in my life. I always – I was that wife that was like, “If you ever look at pornography I’m leaving.” That was kind of like, “I’m getting a divorce. You’re gone.” And that obviously didn’t happen, we’re still married. But it was a struggle. I remember calling my best friend and just bawling, I mean I’m so hysterical, we talked all night.

I was crushed, it was not news that I was expecting and it was hard. It was very hard and it was, gosh, it was until about 2012 that was just a really, really, really hard time in our marriage.

Jody Moore: Okay. And Zack what was it like for you at this point?

Zack Spafford: It was just devastating, I was so ashamed. I had gone on a mission to Rome, Italy. I had done everything that I was supposed to do to try and be that good Mormon boy that I thought I was supposed to be. And this one thing had just been in the back of my mind as a constant reminder of how I wasn’t good enough for literally years. Being the dad that I wanted to be and being the husband that I wanted to be, there was always this thing hanging over it.

And I was so ashamed that I had let my wife down, my job is to be amazing and be a good father and a good priesthood holder and a good everything, be worthy. I wasn’t doing it, I was living a dual life, I was being duplicitous and it just it felt horrible that now she knew and she could see through me.

Jody Moore: Did you have any feelings of like once she found out and it became more out in the open, and I would imagine as you struggled with it there was probably still secrecy and hiding, I don’t know. But did it feel like a relief at all once she knew?

Zack Spafford: No.

Jody Moore: No, it didn’t.

Zack Spafford: Because she was so mad and she doesn’t love me anymore. So it was this really difficult struggle to even, sometimes just to even be in the room. And then of course there was still secrecy because our brains, we don’t like to get in trouble. And so I was still hiding things. I only ever really got found out, it was never this thing where I was like, “Hey, honey, check it out, I do this thing.”

Jody Moore: Just so you know, yeah.

Zack Spafford: It was always like, no, I don’t want to be in trouble. No, I don’t want to be in trouble. So it was never a relief until I started to figure it out on my own, until I started to really look at the tools that are available and look at my brain and go, “How can I just figure out my brain and stop this habit, instead of hiding and being in the shadows and not being the person that I want to be?” That was the point where it became a relief. It was never like, “Hey, Darcy knows and she’s super mad, [inaudible].”

Jody Moore: That feels good, yeah.

Darcy Spafford: Well, and also over time as I saw him starting to make changes and progress, then I was able to see the progress and then I shifted too. And then it became more of an open communication between us instead of me just raging at him.

Zack Spafford: Throwing my laptop from the company down the stairs and stuff like that.

Jody Moore: Surprised that didn’t work.

Darcy Spafford: Not the most shiny moment in my life.

Jody Moore: And yet totally understandable what both of you were going through. I don’t mean to make light of a heavy subject. So, Zack you said that about five years ago you started looking at your brain and you figured out, I’ve got to figure out what’s happening in my head internally. What prompted that change for you, how did you figure that out?

Zack Spafford: So Darcy tells me that it was eight years ago really.

Jody Moore: Okay, whenever it was, it was before you found me, I know.

Darcy Spafford: Yeah, it’s funny because I actually know all these dates because it was so ingrained in me, each step. And so I associate it with what kid was born, that’s how I know. It was when the twins were born and that was 2012, which [inaudible].

Jody Moore: So we know you guys were still having sex, which we’ll come back to in a minute. But at any rate, what is it that helped you figure out that you needed a different approach?

Zack Spafford: I started to just look at psychology and I looked at self-help books. And I had been in the 12 steps for years and it was this space where, you know, there’s a couple of phrases that they use in the 12 steps that I found so unhelpful. Like we were powerless against our addiction and, “Hi, my name is Zack and I’m an addict.” Those phrases that kind of reinforced this cycle of struggle and inability to overcome, and I started to just think those phrases made no sense.

And a lot of what I discovered was if I just kind of watch my brain and see what’s going on and try to understand why I’m frustrated or why I’m upset. And really just feel that instead of feeling like I can’t control anything and I have no capacity to be the person that I want to be. And like I said, I didn’t have the vocabulary that I have now. And so it’s hard to describe what I was doing then without using the words of now. But it really was, it was stopping and looking inward and feeling my feelings in that moment, rather than turning to pornography to avoid my feelings.

And it was a lot of just piece by piece, little by little figuring out this trigger creates this end result. What are the steps between? Where can I turn off the road and circumvent the pattern and become less likely to end up at the end where I’ve looked at pornography or I’ve masturbated? And now I’ve got to go tell Darcy that I’ve done the thing that I promised I would never do all those years ago.

Jody Moore: That’s amazing. I think it’s commendable that you were able to slow it down and sort of figure that out. Do you notice with your clients especially that – I feel like the shame is the main problem, it prevents people from doing what you did which is that we have to look at it objectively and shame is the opposite of that. Shame causes us to not want to look at it, to hide it and to bury it. What’s been your experience of shame with yourself or your clients?

Zack Spafford: Well, yeah, so I think one of the thoughts that all of us have is I can’t stop, or I shouldn’t do this, or I should be better, something like that where we’re judging ourselves. And that shame really does create this barrier to discovery. And my clients, they come to me and they say, “I know that pornography is bad.” And I look at that and I go, “Is it? Is it really the thing that’s bad here or is it how you’re feeling that’s bad?”

Because there are people out there, and as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I think that using pornography is bad for you. That’s kind of how we are all taught, but at some point we think this is so horrible that if anybody knows they’re going to think that I’m a horrible person. And that shame just drives the behavior deeper. And we use this phrase in coaching a lot, “You can’t hate yourself skinny.”

Well, you can’t hate yourself away from pornography either. And that, understanding that and going, “Wait a minute.” And taking a different look at it, taking a different tack and being like, “Okay, I’m just going to figure this out, I’m going to discover what’s going on.” And I went from I can’t stop looking at pornography to I can look at pornography, which is totally just switching the agency conversation. I can look at pornography if I choose to, which by the way is the truth.

Jody Moore: That is the truth.

Zack Spafford: Right. You can’t look at pornography is not true, because you probably have, you probably do, you might do it on a regular basis. So I can’t isn’t even remotely close to true. And understanding that and saying, “Okay, if I can do this then it’s not about shame, it’s about decisions.”

Jody Moore: And I can and it doesn’t make me a bad person actually. Isn’t that true?

Darcy Spafford: I was really open with people. And I think that helped remove a little bit of shame from Zack because he knew that other people knew about it and they still supported him, they still loved him, they rallied around him. And I think that that was super helpful for him to realize, I guess I’m not a horrible person. I’m not the worst person in the world or people aren’t going to think that I’m disgusting and not worthy of being around them.

Zack Spafford: Yeah. I’ve never told anybody that I have a pornography problem and had them reject me as a human. Nobody’s ever been like, “So go away now,” quite the opposite. So I used to teach Sunday school in our congregation in St. George. And at one point I was like, you know, as you do lessons you come up with things to talk about.

And one of the lessons, you know, the repentance process was part of the conversation. And I was like, “I had a pornography problem for a lot of years, this was my struggle. And I want you to see that it’s not – the process of repentance is available to all of us and it’s all about agency because the atonements paid for everything. And I’m not a bad person because I’ve struggled with pornography.”

And after that lesson, I can’t tell you how many members of the congregation came up to me and were like, “My brother or my sister, my sibling, my child.” My brother and sister and sibling are the same thing, aren’t they? My parents, all…

Jody Moore: Somebody I know, yeah.

Zack Spafford: Right. “Someone I know is struggling with this and it’s nice to hear someone who has succeeded.”

Darcy Spafford: And I was sitting on the back row sitting next to the bishop’s wife. And I was like, “Okay, we just went there in front of a whole Sunday school.”

Jody Moore: So, Darcy, I want to hear where your head is at now because obviously you’re in a totally different place about it and how did you get to where you are?

Darcy Spafford: It’s a matter of loving one another, forgiving each other, open communication, realizing that it means nothing about you, nothing, zilch. It’s so – that is such the underlying issue; it always goes back, what are we making it mean about us? And even if you think that you’re not, if you really look deeply and you watch your reaction, it’s always like a trigger for how like something you feel about yourself.

And so once you can realize that that is not the case and that this truly is your husband trying to deal with his emotions and that this is his go to vice, and it makes a big difference.

Jody Moore: Yeah. I think that’s true. I think I see it as a buffer, which we teach about buffering. And I certainly have things that I buffer with so I can totally get it. That’s easy for me to say in not having had a husband that has a pornography problem as far as I know. But I try that on in my head all the time, I’m like, what if he does? What if he tells, or what if he has an affair or whatever? I just like to try on things in my head because the truth is I don’t know how I would feel in that situation. I’d like to think I’d make a space for myself to wrestle with whatever.

But I really do believe that my reaction would be like, “Yeah, I get it.” I mean do want to work on that but I get buffering, I guess is what I’m saying. I get having a habit that helps you escape emotion, whatever that habit happens to be, because it’s hard being a human, it’s hard feeling all your feelings. And there’s so many escapes and so many easy buttons in our world today that it’s really hard not to go to those things.

Darcy Spafford: So my other advice would be is to work on yourself, because I feel like those first years I really just lost myself, I seriously. I could see only straight forward at how can I fix Zack? It was all about fixing Zack instead of in what way do I contribute to this? And how am I maybe even making it worse? Because…

Zack Spafford: And that’s not to blame anybody because we’re all trying to just get through the day. But there are certain things that kind of perpetuates the cycle, like trying to be controlling of your spouse’s activities. That’s not really going to drive him to be a better person. That’s just going to drive you crazy and I think it’s important to recognize that it’s not about your broken tooth so you should also get it fixed. It’s really about how do I want to show up and who do I want to be in the moments where I’m dealing with this?

And coming at it from as clean a place as possible, I’m not saying you shouldn’t be upset, I’m not saying you shouldn’t feel as though your husband needs to change. What I’m saying is when you come at it and you’re like I am going to stay in a place of love here, as best I can because I recognize that he is struggling. And very few men – I’ve not really come across anybody who’s like, “No, I just do this because I hate my wife.” They’re doing it because they’re trying to figure out how to feel good.

And so understanding that as like a baseline, you’re not to blame and you’re not to make it your problem. Then you can really kind of move forward as yourself.

Jody Moore: Yeah. And isn’t it true also, Zack, because what I hear from women sometimes is like, “Well, I can’t help but thinking if I were more attractive in some way then he wouldn’t need to go to that thing.” Can you talk to that?

Zack Spafford: Yeah. I mean I always like to point to Kobe Bryant, I mean this guy had the whole world, he’s an amazing basketball player, still not as good as Michael Jordan, but that’s a discussion for another time. It’s nice to be on a podcast where nobody’s going to disagree with that.

Jody Moore: Yeah, that’s right.

Zack Spafford: But it’s important to recognize that as he was traveling he was also seeking out some of those pleasures where he was, you know, and it was available to him. But his wife, you look at his wife and his wife is one more attractive people you’ll ever see. And yet he was seeking those pleasures, not because his wife wasn’t perfect or because she was perfect. It was because he was not comfortable with how he was feeling, wasn’t – really hadn’t trained himself to be okay with being uncomfortable.

And that’s really a huge component of all of this is like you deal with your stresses every single day; try not to compound them with something that’s going to make you feel bad long term.

Jody Moore: Yeah, that’s a good point. Zack, what advice do you give a client, when you first start out with someone, what are the things that you begin with? And I’m sure it varies obviously by client, but can you share with us any kind of basics?

Zack Spafford: Yeah. So I think the first thing that we start with, and for people who aren’t familiar with what coaching is and some of the language that we use, I start by teaching them what their brain is doing. Your brain is literally just trying to survive, but it doesn’t recognize that unfortunately pornography is not necessary for survival. And so it thinks this has so much dopamine, I’ve got to get it, just like 1,000 years ago when we wanted berries and fatty foods. That’s what your brain is doing, and this is totally built in and it’s totally normal.

I think the other thing that is really important to recognize is that this is a process of reasserting your agency and creating a new process to deal with whatever it is that you deal with in your day-to-day. It’s not about I’m broken and so I have to fix something. It’s about understanding the way that the processes within your own mind work. And using those processes to your advantage and making it so that at the end of the day you are creating the person that you want to be.

I point at Tony Robbins pretty regularly and I say, “This guy, he’s not super special, but one of the things that he does is he tells himself I’m unstoppable.” I think that’s an amazing thought and if we could all bring that in and put it as a core belief, how amazing would our lives be? And make it so that you now can do whatever it is that you need to do to be the person you want to be. We talk about really everything, I mean there’s so much and I always try to cater directly to that individual’s needs. And they’re almost all coming at it from different places.

But I think one of the biggest components of this is a lack of self-confidence, in almost every client that I work with there is this lack of self-confidence because they don’t trust themselves anymore. They don’t trust themselves to do what they say they will because they say, “I’m not going to look at pornography.” And then they do it and they don’t know how to stop. And we work to get them to that place.

Jody Moore: So good. And that’s going to impact a lot of areas of your life I’m sure as you build that self-trust, right?

Zack Spafford: Yeah, absolutely.

Jody Moore: Do you work with young men as well?

Zack Spafford: So I generally don’t work with men younger than 16, and women. I don’t work with anybody younger than 16 for a couple of reasons. One is I think it’s really hard for a young person to really be self-reflective enough to do this work effectively. And I get these parents, they contact me and they’re like, “Hey, I’ll spend anything to make this happen.” And I say, “Is your child really onboard with this? Is this really something that they want to do or is it going to be me talking to them and them waiting for the session to end?” And that’s not fair to anybody.

Jody Moore: That’s right. And unfortunately as a coach we can’t really help people who don’t want help, dang it. It goes back to the agency thing again. Darcy, I wanted to come back real quickly to something you said which you said you recommended to a spouse. I keep saying woman, man, but obviously sometimes it’s the other way around. But to the spouse to work on yourself, what do you do to work on yourself and what do you mean by that?

Darcy Spafford: What I mean by that is not trying to control them, and looking inward at yourself and what is it that I want in my life? Because I totally lost myself in not only just Zack’s pornography use but having eight children. And I am just now on the journey of finally connecting with myself and rediscovering my passions. What do I like doing? What brings joy to my life? A lot of women are like, “I’m not going to go on girls’ night outs.”

Or, “I’m not going to go on overnight trips with my girl friends, even though I would love to, but I’m scared to leave the house because my husband might look at pornography while I’m gone.” Or those types of things is where it’s like you’re trying to control your husband’s actions, and in return making your life miserable. I had a lot of years where I was just miserable. And that is not a way to live.

Jody Moore: And then blaming him for it.

Darcy Spafford: Yeah, totally, yeah, it’s all your fault, instead of taking ownership, no, I’m my own person, I have my own emotions. I have my own life. It’s my job to create the life that I want to be living, outside of what my husband’s behaviors are.

Zack Spafford: I think that you also, you know, you signed up for Be Bold membership and that was this catalyst in terms of you looking inward and figuring out, who do I want to be? And that’s one of the things that honestly, that was a start of so much in our lives that has been amazing. And I say that 100% genuinely, your program has been an extraordinary force for good in our lives.

Darcy Spafford: Absolutely.

Jody Moore: That’s awesome, I love hearing that. How would you describe your marriage today then? Do you feel like going through this has brought you closer together? How would you describe it now?

Darcy Spafford: It’s amazing. I mean I never could have dreamed that our sex life, I don’t know if I’m allowed to say that word on your podcast.

Jody Moore: Please, yes.

Zack Spafford: This a children’s podcast.

Jody Moore: No, that’s what we really want to know about.

Darcy Spafford: Okay, that our sex life could be so amazing, and so connecting, and so fulfilling, because so many years before it was me using it as a way to control his behavior. It was I’m looking at it from a place of how can I make it so my husband doesn’t look at pornography? And well, let’s have sex so many times or all those things. And in the process of doing that we – well, our sex life kind of…

Zack Spafford: We reduced intimacy in place of sex. And I think it’s really interesting because as a man, I think we often get saddled with the trope, he wants sex and she doesn’t, that I think is the standard way that we think about this. And the truth is what we both really want is intimacy and how that happens is really important. And it’s interesting because she would; she’d be like, as our friend, Diana put it, wiggle time in the shower. Let’s do that instead of actually connecting in an intimate way where we’re both giving ourselves to each other.

And here’s the really interesting part about that. That feels empty on my side too. And I think we don’t think about it in that way, we’re like, dude got sex, so he’s good. That’s not really what it is that we’re looking for. There was a period of time where I had to shift from I’ll take whatever I can get to I am not really interested in that. I would rather really connect with you tonight when we’re both able to get into it.

And I think that’s a really important distinction that the men and the women who are dealing with this need to make, it’s not about sex. I’ll be perfectly blunt about it, it is not about sex. What your partner really wants is your intimacy and what you really want to give to your partner is your intimacy. Sex is perfunctory.

Jody Moore: Well, and sex and intimacy are not the same thing like you’re saying. And intimacy can exist without any sex at all, nothing sexual. And I think that’s such a fascinating topic. And I do also think though that true intimacy requires vulnerability on both parts. And so in a challenge like this where one or both of you may be feeling like it’s not safe to be vulnerable, that is going to impact intimacy in the end. If we can’t be real and authentic because it doesn’t feel safe then we don’t connect. We can pretend but we don’t have real connection.

And I can say personally anyway in my marriage that we’ve gone through waves of intimacy and lack of intimacy. And even if we’re always having sex, it’s like, yeah, but we’re not really connecting. And I think that’s normal on some level but I think it’s good to be aware of, and just like you’ve both said, working on yourself is the way that you get comfortable being vulnerable and are then able to connect with another person.

Zack Spafford: Yeah. I think if you men want a formula for real true intimacy with your wife, stop taking at every chance you get. And start putting in the time to really create intimacy in specific moments of your evening, or daytime, or whenever it is that you do it, but make it about intimacy, not about just getting some.

Jody Moore: Yeah. Just do the dishes and let her talk for a while, that goes a long way.

Zack Spafford: It sure does, I didn’t do the dishes before we started this podcast.

Jody Moore: You’re going to be glad later. Well, I love you guys so much. I think that you’re such an inspiring example and I love the work that you’re doing. Zack, I also get a lot of requests for a male coach, sometimes it doesn’t have anything to do with pornography, but just somebody wants a man to coach them. And a lot of members of the church especially are looking for a man that’s a member of the church. Do you coach people on other things outside of pornography?

Zack Spafford: Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s really important to recognize that pornography is not really the problem, it’s a symptom of a broader issue in our lives, which everybody has the broader issues. It’s just a matter of how they’re presenting themselves in terms of the problem at the end. So for some men it’s overeating, for some men it’s excessive shopping. We buy grills at an extraordinary rate.

Jody Moore: TVs.

Zack Spafford: TV, right, I’m watching too much TV, or I’m playing too many video games.

Jody Moore: No, my husband likes to buy TVs.

Zack Spafford: Does he?

Jody Moore: I’m like, “We have enough big screen TVs.” Anyway, sorry.

Darcy Spafford: We’ll take your hand me downs.

Jody Moore: But yeah, I love your point, pornography’s just a symptom. And that’s what’s so fun about coaching too, is that it doesn’t matter what you focus on, you get to coach on everything, because it’s all just human beings with human behaviors and the same brain loops showing up in different ways in our lives. So, Zack, if people are interested in possibly working with you, you do a free little – what do you call it, consult, a free session?

Zack Spafford: I call it consult, yeah.

Jody Moore: A consult, you offer a free consult, yes, tell me what that’s about.

Zack Spafford: So this is really a great opportunity to determine whether or not, one, it’s important to you to make this investment in figuring out your life. I get so many people who I talk to them either on Facebook or through email and they’re like, “I don’t know if I can.” And really the question is not can I, it’s am I ready to do this? And if I’m ready to do this then it’s all about getting all in and just deciding to figure out why you’re doing what you’re doing and change that.

That’s what I had to do all those years ago on my own, and I wish – I wish I had had a coach who could have shown me the skills and helped me look at my brain. It wouldn’t have taken me so long had I known all of this.

Jody Moore: And what I love about a consult like that is it’s – I always say it’s like the free sample when you go in the frozen yogurt shop, you’re like, “Could I please try that flavor?” And you’ll just get to see whether or not you and Zack connect with one another as a client and coach, if you like his style, if you resonate with what he’s teaching you. And he’ll be able to give you some good advice too about whether or not you’re ready and he’ll give you whatever options he has.

So I know Zack’s schedule’s very full as Darcy just told me in this call. So make sure you go get on there soon, because I know, like I have old podcasts when I used to do consults and now I don’t do them anymore. And Zack is going to get to that point I anticipate in the near future where he’s not going to have the time to do that anymore. So if you’re thinking about getting some help and seeing if Zack’s the right coach for you, I would go sign up for that right away. So they go to the same link, zackspafford.com/workwithme.

Zack Spafford: workwithme, yeah.

Jody Moore: Yeah, okay, love it.

Zack Spafford: For some people doing it just themselves alone, we do that and we also offer a group coaching opportunity, a group coaching package so that you can start to see maybe I’m not alone. And this is an opportunity to see other people’s brains and why they’re doing this thing. And really I think you get to learn a great deal when you do that and I think it’s a really spectacular way to begin the process of figuring out, okay, what’s wrong with my brain?

Jody Moore: So good. So on the consult you’ll kind of advise people I would assume on the best option, help them decide, yeah.

Zack Spafford: Yeah, I just let them know this is what’s available. I know that people make good decisions, if you give them the information, people are really good at making good decisions, so I help them see that and help them decide, “Okay, which one do you want to do?” Just go to zackspafford.com/workwithme, Zach Spafford, Z.a.c.h. S, p as in Paul, a. f as in Frank, f as in Frank, o.r. d as in David.com/workwithme. There’s a [inaudible] up at the top of the page.

Jody Moore: Okay. And we will put a link to that in the show notes. And then you also have a podcast, if people want to go learn a little more from you on the podcast first. What’s your podcast?

Zack Spafford: Yeah, absolutely. It’s actually my favorite thing to do every week. It’s the Self Mastery Podcast where we talk about pornography and sex. And we talk also about how to just be a better person. And I think so many of us men, we’re like, “How do I become the man that I’m supposed to be for my family,” as either a member of the church or someone who just wants to live a better life.

Jody Moore: So good. Most of your podcasts are just you; you don’t do a lot of interviews or is that wrong?

Zack Spafford: I’ve done two interviews I think, but for the most part it’s probably me about 75, 80% of the time and then Darcy comes on every once in a while and she sets me straight.

Jody Moore: I love it. I say that because I love that you get excited doing it. I feel the same way about my podcast and people always say, “Isn’t it so hard to just talk into a mic just you?” And I wonder, is something wrong with me? I love talking into a mic, just me.

Zack Spafford: Honestly, it’s so much easier to talk into the mic just you, right?

Jody Moore: That’s what I think.

Zack Spafford: Yeah, because when you’ve got people on, there’s so much editing.

Jody Moore: That’s right, or I try to ask a question, I’m like that was the wrong question, they didn’t say what I wanted them to say. But anyway, so good, you guys are amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Zack Spafford: Absolutely. It’s been our pleasure.

Who is your life coach? If you don’t have one I would be so honored to be your coach. I created a virtual coaching program called Be Bold that I want to invite you to join me in. We can address challenges, we can work on goals, and we can do it in so many different ways.

We have group coaching, individual private coaching, and online chats along with hundreds of hours of courses and content that I’ve created just for you. When you’re ready to really take what you’re learning on the podcast to the 10x level, then come check out Be Bold at JodyMoore.com/membership.