584. How to Get Unstuck

If you’re feeling stuck, today’s episode is going to get you moving and moving in the right direction. If you’ve been working towards some kind of a goal or change and you’re not making progress, or you notice that you’re not consistently showing up and it’s getting harder and harder to motivate yourself to do so, this is the episode for you. We need to get you moving, and we need to get you pointed in the right direction and seeing wins. And that’s what I’m gonna teach you how to do today. Welcome to Better Than Happy. Let’s do this.

Welcome to Better Than Happy, the podcast where we apply all the tools of psychology, human behavior, and mindfulness to live our best lives, navigate challenges, and achieve our goals. I’m Jody Moore and I’ll be your coach today. Let’s do it.

Jody: So I don’t know if you saw because I did put it in the title, but I thought we would talk today about how to get unstuck. And because I think even the concept of being stuck is obviously something we just decide in our heads, but I thought we could talk about it with regards to relationships, business, life, goals, whatever comes up. But I like, I have seven points I outlined.

Mark: Wow, you’ve done all the work.

Jody: I know, I’m really organized Yeah. It’s my job, and I’m excited to hear your thoughts about it. So I’m not asking your permission. I already decided. But here’s how I wanna set it up, tell me if you think this is true or not. So I think that there’s two kinds of being quote unquote stuck. Okay? I think, at least for me in my life and what I’ve witnessed with a lot of clients, there’s this being stuck feeling that I’m very aware of, where in a certain area I might even describe it that way to somebody, especially a coach. I don’t know if people ever tell you they feel stuck, but they’ll say, I’m stuck. So this tends to come up when we’re trying to progress towards some kind of a goal, right?

Like I’m not losing the weight I wanna lose, or my group business isn’t growing the way I want it to grow, or maybe somebody who’s dating and they wanna get married and they’re feeling stuck, right? So there’s this like awareness kind of being stuck, which for me means that I have some negative emotion. I’m frustrated, I’m overwhelmed, I’m discouraged, maybe I feel guilty because I think it’s my fault, but that’s typically where we become aware of it because we’re not seeing the progress that we wanna see, right? And then there’s this, what I’m gonna call unaware kind of being stuck where we’re not really growing or moving or changing or learning, but we don’t necessarily feel bad about it. And I don’t think this kind of stuck is a problem necessarily. I think some people would describe it as being content or satisfied. And I think it’s healthy to have hopefully a lot of those moments in your life where you feel content. I’m not talking about like, I just achieved a goal.

I’m talking about like, I’ve done the thing or like, let’s take marriage for example. You get married, maybe you wanted to get married. I didn’t get married till I was 30. So for a long time I felt stuck in that area, then I got married, it’s great, it’s fun, it’s a big change, and then there’s just this contentment around it that’s easy to just ride out for a long time, but I’m calling it stuck still because, and I wanna hear your thoughts on this, but I do believe that human beings are like plants in that if we’re not growing, we’re dying. And so I don’t think that we have to always have to grow from discomfort, but I think if we’re coasting for too long, then at some point, that unaware kind of stuck turns into the awareness kind of being stuck where there it’s going to bring up some kind of pain or dissatisfaction or boredom. I know I’ve experienced this in my business a lot where I’ve achieved something I was working towards, and then I wanna take a break, and that’s fine, and I’m content.

But after a while, I don’t know if boredom’s the right word so much as like I just need a change. I can feel myself not growing and evolving because I’m not striving anymore. And so I heard it said, I heard Tony Robbins say this. He’s like, every now and then in certain areas of life, a portal opens up. I always do this because you know doctors, do you see Doctor Strange? And he opens like a new portal. So he’s like, a portal opens, and if you don’t go through it, eventually it closes again. And that’s what I mean by this awareness kind of stuff, because you’re like, maybe I wanna try something different, maybe I wanna do something new, maybe I need to push myself, and if you don’t go through that, because it’s kinda scary to, then it closes again, and you go back to just kinda content, but then it eventually opens again. Okay. So that was a lot. Tell me your thoughts on this topic.

Mark: I’m very intrigued by the second kind of stuck that you’re describing, and it resonates with me. What do you think happens in a person’s life that shows them that they’re in that second kind of stuck?

Jody: Yeah. It’s a good question. Like, the reason I call it unaware is because, at least for me and many of my clients, I don’t think that we are usually aware of it. I don’t think something happens that shows you that you’re stuck until you decide you’re dissatisfied with it. But, you know, we hear a lot of people talk about end of life and, like, deathbed regrets, if you will, and I feel like the most common thing, I have not thoroughly researched this, but the most common thing I hear is that people look back on their life and they regret things that they didn’t do. They regret not trying what they wanted to try or they regret not trying. There’s very few people that say, I regret doing that. Even things that quote unquote failed or didn’t turn out how they want, it’s very unusual that on your deathbed you’re saying, I never should have tried. We’re usually saying, I should have tried. I should have done more.

And so that’s what I think of this unaware type of regret is just, and you know, I coach a lot of women who are, you know, when I say, let’s go big, let’s try something new, let’s put yourself out there in some way, let’s set a goal. I’ve taught goal setting stuff before in The Lab, and it’s very common for the women that I attract for some reason to say, I’m good, I have a good life, I’m happy, I’m content, I don’t really want for more. Their goals are things like, there’s some pictures I’ve been meaning to frame and hang on the wall. I’m like, that’s fine and all.

Mark: I’m not laughing at that. That was that was not in the range of things that I would have thought. I definitely have versions of that in my own life that…

Jody: Oh me too. I always say, I can do hard things. Just can’t do easy Like, frankly,

Mark: I’m not laughing at that person. I’m kind of laughing at the human condition where that’s the sort of thing we do. I relate.

Jody: And I can relate to it too, but what I love is helping people who wanna try something scary, wanna, whatever it is. And I noticed then in a lot of people, they just don’t it doesn’t have to be building a business. It doesn’t have to be I don’t care what it is, but I’m like, what would be a little bit scary? What would be something you have no idea how to do that would require your discomfort and growth? And we’re gonna get into that in the seven points I outlined here, but that’s what I mean by that unaware kind of stuff, because it’s like, okay, at some point, let’s say raising kids is really fulfilling you. That’s great. I have no problem with that. And that might be enough. That might be pushing you and growing.

But at some point, those kids are gonna leave the house or at some, like your life’s gonna change. That’s when now we’re left going, hold on. And maybe that’s when the portal opens, and that’s when you have to decide. But I think that there’s a stuckness that happened even before that that we just weren’t aware of. Because, I don’t know, like I feel that way a little bit in my life right now, where I’m like, things are good, you know? My kids are at fun ages, my business is stable and steady and I enjoy it and like, but I can tell I’m not really growing much. Of course, I am always a little bit. But I can tell I’m in this unaware kind of stuff because I’m not dissatisfied, I’m not unhappy, but I’m just kinda coasting along.

Mark: Yeah.

Jody: I don’t know.

Mark: I wanna say, I haven’t had much time to think about this yet, but I wanna say that the second kind of stuck is the one I deal with just chronically in my life. It resonates deeply where I think throughout most of my adult life, if somebody asked me, how are doing? Like, what are you you know – no, I mean, I’m good. Because historically, I haven’t really wanted to push myself very much. That’s not quite true. In most of my adulthood, I haven’t wanted to push myself very much. I’ve noticed that the as I age, I I’m more content to coast. And maybe I crave coasting.

Jody: I don’t know that it’s a bad thing either. Like, I’m not trying to say that that’s a bad way to live.

Mark: It’s got its season. When you were talking, was having this thought. In my work in relationships, sometimes if I’m teaching classes or talking with people over dinner and they find out kind of what I’m doing in my coaching practice right now, working with individuals and couples in their relationship, something that will come up is the idea that if there’s no conflict in a relationship, it’s a healthy relationship, which could be true but isn’t necessarily true. In fact in my work, in my experience, I have found that zero conflict is as much of a sign to look more closely. I’m not calling it a red flag because I don’t believe it’s a red flag. I don’t like that framing. It’s as much of a sign to look more closely at the relationship as very high conflict would be. Both extremes are interesting, I think. So I would say that zero conflict in a relationship, including in a relationship with self, could be a sign of type two stuckness, according to Jody Moore.

Jody: Yeah that’s interesting.

Mark: Nothing is really causing conflict in me. Also, not to be too nitpicky about words, but conflict doesn’t necessarily mean contention. Doesn’t mean, like, angry emotion or it means disagreement, challenge, growing kinds of things. And if I have no conflict in myself about where I am right now, either I’m living, you know, really authentic life, really clean life according to my values, I am who I wanna be and great. But if there’s no conflict at all, there’s a possibility, speaking for myself, that I’m not asking myself hard enough questions, and I’m not looking at where growth might be possible, and I’m I’m just not looking over there because of fear.

Jody: Yeah. Well, and because if we take it to an extreme, right, if all we’re gonna do is be satisfied and content and have no, what we’re calling, conflict here, we would just sit on the couch and eat chocolate or take drugs or something and watch Netflix. Right? Like, which would then become a different problem, of course. But I don’t know. And I think we’re all wired differently too to, like, what is the ideal amount of conflict or growth or whatever or challenge in your life is different. And sometimes life gives us circumstances that are enough challenge that we don’t need to go try to set a big goal or anything. But I wanna speak to – we’ll be speaking more to this first kind of stuck…

Mark: Okay.

Jody: Today, I think. To the kind of stuck where you’re just like, yeah. I want to progress in this area, and I’m not progressing. How do I get moving? I think it’s interesting to think about both because sometimes it’s less for me anyway, it’s less like, I’m unhappy with this area of my life, and just a little nudge, like, kinda I maybe might wanna try that thing, and I think either of those would be interesting to explore. Okay. So I’m gonna lay out my seven points here, and then we’ll discuss them. So the first thing that I recommend if somebody were to say to me, let’s just use an example. If they if they come to me and say, I’m stuck in my business, not growing the way I want it to, I would ask them what they want. Because I think the first step is to become intimately familiar with what you even want.

Mark: A 100% agree. It would have been my first point. You had asked me for my first thought, it would have been connect with desire or lack of desire.

Jody: Well do you mean by that?

Mark: I wanna keep hearing your points, but when if we connect first with desire, somebody tells me they’re stuck. If they’re claiming that they want to make progress in an area, but they’re not taking action to pursue that progress, I first wanna check with desire, including making room for the possibility that they don’t want what they claim to want. Because sometimes when you interrogate that, you find that a person is claiming to want something they think they should want, but it doesn’t actually move them in any, like, powerful way. So they’re fighting with a should, which almost immediately explains the lack of action.

Jody: Yeah. It’s a should, or it’s even just an assumed unquestioned everybody else around me in this area seems to want this, so obviously, this is what we want without even questioning, do I really want that though? Which includes like, do I want it enough to do what’s necessary to achieve it? Or to sacrifice what’s necessary to achieve it, right? Again, this is one the things I learned from working with you even, was just like, in business, everyone talks about growth. How are we gonna grow your business? How are we gonna grow your business?

And you’re, I feel like, really good at pointing out like, I mean, you can grow it if you want to. It’s okay to want that, but do you want that? Or do you like your business the way it is? The size that it is? Do you wanna just maintain your business? And it’s like, a second. We could do that? Oh, yeah. We could do that. And that’s noble as well. And for me, I’ve been, in the last few years, wrestling with that. Like, part of me wants to grow it, but part of me wants to just enjoy it and coast and not do what’s necessary to grow it.

And what I’m coming to realize more is I love the size of my business right now. I love, like, the size of my team, the amount of revenue we generate, the amount of clients we have. It’s very, like, manageable. I can put my arms around it. But sometimes I want to also have some variety in terms of problems I’m solving or clients I’m working with. And so it’s like, how do I maybe mix up my business without necessarily thinking this is because we’re gonna grow? Because that’s what everyone will say in the world of business coaching. Right? It’s like, well, is that scalable? How are you gonna scale that? And I’m like, what? I don’t need to scale it. I don’t necessarily wanna scale it. Yeah. So anyway.

Mark: I love that. You well, you know, because you’ve said that came up in our work, but I think that the human soul wants to grow. Sorry. That’s a little melodramatic. But I believe that. And I think that tracks with our shared faith, and I think lots of people’s faith, many traditions. I think the human soul wants to grow. I think that in our culture and in our industry in particular, we just default to the idea that growth means more bigger business, more money, whatever. These things are not inherently bad or good, but there’s lots of ways to grow. There’s lots of places to deal with ourselves and get scared and try new things. And money and business is, certainly one of them, but it’s not the only one.

Jody: Yeah. And the reason I use that word intimate, I like to say become intimately familiar with what you want, is because there’s the surface answer, but then you do have to explore these questions, which is what a good coach could help you do. But you could also do it on your own by just asking, why do I want that? Is it just because I assumed I should want that? What’s behind that? I don’t know about you, but I sometimes wonder, do we have any just intrinsic desires? Are they all just things that we’ve seen from outside of us and picked question.

Mark: So there’s a book. The book, please hold…

Jody: Please hold. I need the book

Mark: Is called – the book is called Wanting. It is by, apparently, two authors. Luke Burgis, son Sean Patrick Hopkins. Okay. It says et al. Maybe lots of people wrote this book.

Jody: Maybe lots of people. Okay. Wanting.

Mark: It’s based on the work of a philosopher called René Girard. Have you ever heard the term mimetic desire?

Jody: Yes.

Mark: Mimetic desire is that class of desire which is copied. So essentially, I’m wearing these glasses, not because deep down in the essence of who Mark Butler is, he wants to wear black, square rimmed kinds of glasses. It’s because I’ve seen square rimmed black glasses on other people and I kind of wanna look like them. I wanna look close enough to them that I feel like I fit, and so I wear these, and I wear this black t shirt for a very similar reason, and my house is brown stucco for a very similar reason. And it kinda makes the case that there’s not really such a thing as totally original internal intrinsic desire. He proposes the idea that kind of all desire is copied desire, which is fascinating. It’s a fascinating idea.

Jody: Fascinating. Fascinating because yeah, I can absolutely I mean, my glasses happen to be what I saw seen on Gwyneth Paltrow. So they’ll be different next year.

Mark: They’re great glasses.

Jody: Don’t I look like Gwyneth? When I put these on?

Mark: I love the trend with women’s giant glasses, I think it’s adorable. I love it.

Jody: It is adorable. Good answer. Good answer. Okay. Well, that’s actually a perfect segue into the second thing that I wanted to recommend. So become intimately aware with like, what do I want? Why do I want it? Do I really want this? If I gave myself permission to not want this or to want something different, what do I find there? You know, and even to get specific. So I’ll give a different example of like, with your health goals, what do you want? In any goal area, when I tend to ask people, well, what do you want? They tend to hem and haw around it because they think that they shouldn’t say something that’s unrealistic, and so I don’t care if they tell me. I’m not asking them to commit to a number that I can hold them accountable to. That’s not the type of coaching I do. I just want them to be intimately familiar with what they want.

So in business, the easiest way to do that is to give yourself a metric, whether it be a number of lives impacted, number of hours that you’re working or not working, number of money you’re gonna make. There’s lots of ways, but if you can define it in a simple way, numbers tend to simplify, and then become intimately familiar with why you want that, I think that’s healthy. Number two though, is I said to direct your wants in such a way that you’re using your want in a useful way. That was not a clear way to say it. We can probably reword this. But I like the idea that you can direct your wants. You can kind of manage and coach yourself to want something that’s gonna serve you best. So when you talk about mimetic desire, it’s a great example of that.

Like, I remember when we built our first house years ago, it was like, we have to have a white kitchen. Like obviously, we’re gonna have a white kitchen. That’s, I don’t know if you’ve looked online lately, but that’s the thing, and that’s what I loved was a white kitchen. Well now, it needs to be cozier, it needs to have more earth tones and some wood accents and you don’t want a stark white kitchen. Or in my own mind, my taste changed, but of course my taste changed because I consumed all the media of whoever told me what kitchen is the style now. So if that’s true, if my desires and my wants and my preferences are trained by someone outside me, I could train them internally.

Mark: I really do agree. Yes

Jody: Right? I did this experiment once that I highly recommend for everybody, where I decided to try to change my favorite color. That’s not what you thought I was gonna say, huh?

Mark: When is this?

Jody: This was years ago. I was like, is that true? Like, am I just faking it? If I say no, I don’t like that kitchen anymore or whatever, like, or can I really genuinely train my own brain? And favorite color is like such a benign thing that I just decided to experiment with it because green had been my favorite color for as long as I can remember. But I was like, what if I want it not just like a different shade of green, but like yellow? It’s gonna be yellow. And so I just started focusing on yellow. And so of course, the reticular activating system in my brain starts noticing yellow, starts noticing it in alignment with things that I like or admire, like it’s the color of Reese Witherspoon’s brand, Hello Sunshine. You can see where my head is, Mark. And it might not be a good thing that I reveal this to everyone.

Mark: Did I know Jody was this, like, the celebrity thing when we worked together before. I love it.

Jody: I love celebrities. Don’t worry, I’m gonna keep you up on what’s going on with celebrities. But anyway, here’s what I mean by that with regards to being unstuck though. Let bring it back in for a minute. I think that if the things I desire are outside of my control, that’s not a good use of my desire or want. So that’s the first thing I tell people to look out for. So if, let’s say I’m trying to lose weight, right? And they’re like, I just wanna be able to eat cake and ice cream and whatever. I wanna be able to keep eating what I’ve been eating and be healthy, whatever they define that to mean.

And that may not be an option. So let’s not waste time wanting that. Let’s not waste our want or desire on things that are either just not possible or not within our control. So that is where we get into like other people’s behavior is not within my control, the economy is not really in my control. So many factors outside of me because again, this is what I hear a lot with women is like, well, what I want is for my husband to behave this way or for my kids to be happy and thriving and so many things that are just outside of your control. I’m like, that’s such a waste of your want. Let’s spend your want on something…

Mark: To the person who spends a lot of energy wanting other people’s behavior to change, I think it feels very safe and wise to be really focused on wanting other people’s behavior to change. And as a coach, when you give them, you know, share the idea that that may not pan out, that that’s one of the things we cannot control at all, It seems to be a really hard thing to embrace. In my relationship work, I’ve interacted with people who when you bump up against the idea that we can’t change other person’s behavior, no matter how much we want it, they seem to go through a phase where they want to negotiate that. And they’re like, no no no. But if I just phrase it right, they’ll change their behavior. If they just have all the information that I am prepared to share with them, they’ll change their behavior. If I’m consistent enough, they’ll change their behavior. If I’m reasonable enough, if I follow all the expert advice on how to communicate, then they will – they’re gonna that will change their behavior. They will. And it’s, as you’ve said, I agree with you, it’s not a great use of our desire.

Jody: Yeah. But at times, it feels like it does work, right? Like, I do have a conversation with my husband or something, and at least temporarily, maybe, things change. Or we are able to have influence. That’s what I’m trying to say. We’re not saying that we don’t influence.

Mark: Well, yeah. We’re also not saying we don’t share our desires. I think it’s crucial, as we’ve talked about, I think, on other episodes.

Jody: That’s true.

Mark: It’s crucial that we share our desires. And I agree with you. Sometimes we do have those conversations with people, and they say, oh, actually, that is information that I was missing, and I’m happy to have it, and that is what I want to do, so I’m going to do it. The person who is gonna struggle is the one who keeps getting information, who keeps getting a response both through words and actions that they’re not gonna change their behavior, but they keep trying to negotiate that. It that’s where it gets tough.

Jody: Yeah. That’s right. So if the area where you’re feeling stuck is in a relationship, right, it’s just very easy for your want to go to, I want them to hear me. Yeah. I want to feel loved. I want to feel that they are acknowledging my needs, etcetera. So you gotta redirect your wants to something that is within your control, like, I want to be able to feel how I wanna feel regardless of their mood today. And some days that might mean they’re grumpy and I’m grumpy, but if they’re grumpy and I don’t wanna be grumpy, I wanna know how to create my own emotional experience. I wanna feel confident regardless of whether or not they’re acknowledging my worth on this day. You know, it has to be things that are within your control. Maybe it’s I wanna be the kind of mom or grandma or whatever that I wanna be, what have you, instead of I want them to want me in their lives. I want them to like me. I want them to approve of me.

Mark: Yeah. In my opinion, those aren’t wrong desires.

Jody: Agreed.

Mark: You haven’t presented them as wrong desires. They’re desires that do require another person’s participation, so we just accept that. If I want someone else to do or feel a certain thing, I cannot have it without their participation. So any frustration I feel around their participation or lack of participation, that becomes chosen. I’m choosing that frustration because that’s the desire I have, and I wanna keep that desire. So as soon as you realize, I have a choice that allows me to feel the thing I wanna feel without their participation, then we get back into a situation where we have a lot more options.

Jody: Well, it’s a really good point because even this topic of being stuck, it’s okay to be stuck.

Mark: Yeah, totally.

Jody: Right? It’s when the person comes to me and says, I’m stuck in my relationship with my son-in-law, for example. Like, for it’s just not getting better, and I really want it to get better. I don’t wanna feel this way. I don’t wanna feel like he feels this way. How do I make this relationship better? Then I’m gonna say, it’s not wrong to want your son-in-law to like you, but if he doesn’t like you, then it’s keeping you stuck to want that. And that’s the key, it’s like, wait a second, can I let go of wanting him to like me? Can I just decide it’s okay for him not to like me? I get to like me, and I can like him if I want, or I can not like him, but I gotta stop wanting something that I can’t control because it’s keeping me stuck, I think is the key here, if you don’t wanna be stuck.

Mark: Do you know what a revolutionary idea it is to tell people that it’s okay to like someone and have them not feel the same? Like, it is a truly strong person, unless it’s a truly crazy person. It could be either. But a truly strong person is one who could say, I really like you, and it doesn’t actually matter how you feel about me. I I get to just sit here and like you and appreciate you, whether or not you reciprocate.

Jody: Have you ever experienced that?

Mark: Mean, certainly, middle school and junior high and high school and college with girls, including my wife.

Jody: Okay. That’s a good story. We’re gonna bring Kate on one day and tell that story. Because she has to be here to…

Mark: How do I experience that? That’s a great question. I’d have to think about it.

Jody: You know who I think is actually really good at this? Do you follow Gary V? Gary Vaynerchuk?

Mark: I have during oh, yeah. I’m in appreciation for Gary V.

Jody: Yeah. I think he’s actually a pretty good example of this. Like, people hate on him because he has a big following, and he’s very loud and opinionated, and I don’t know. It seems pretty genuine when he’s like, all the hater comments, he’s like, dude, I I feel bad for that person, and I just love them, and I hope that they find success and happiness, and I can think of maybe one or two tiny little moments where I’ve done it, where someone was coming at me, and I could drop into like compassion of like, it must be hard to be them, and this isn’t really about me, and I just I don’t know that I would be like, I loved them, but I could have compassion for them, like, in, again, a couple small moments. And I will say, there is no more powerful feeling in the world. Not powerful like I’m above everybody else, but just powerful like I am in charge of my own self and my own experience. And it’s kind of addictive.

Mark: There have been times in coaching relationships, in individual coaching calls, where a client will they’ll kind of roll me into like, suddenly, they’ll be projecting a lot of anger and disappointment and I’ll be the vehicle. I don’t know how, I’m not explaining that very well.

Jody: Yeah. I know what you mean.

Mark: But I’m not aware exactly how how well or poorly I handle it, but I’ve had a couple of opportunities to observe other coaches where a client starts to kind of blame them in real time and say, Well, you said this, and I did exactly what you said, and and I’m fascinated by the coach who can be in that moment and be present and not become defensive at all, and just be there and say, Okay. Yeah. Keep talking. Like, and not as a way of being a punching bag, but as a way they understand that this is part of that person’s process and that it actually doesn’t reflect on them at all. I’m fascinated by the person who can stay present in that and not become you know, not get caught up in the emotion of them.

Jody: Yeah. Not take it as a personal attack or start to feel defensive. That’s a natural default, to get defensive when you’re feeling attacked. Right? But when you recognize it’s not an attack, it’s just a process. Like a maybe healthy process for this client. Interesting. Okay. So let’s go on. So we’ve talked about becoming intimate with what you want, directing your wants to be useful. Actually, let me just make sure I close the loop on that.

Like, I do want people to want things, though. I think it’s healthy to have desires and to practice allowing yourself to want whatever you want, even if it feels selfish or unrealistic. I always say, you don’t have to tell anyone if if you’re not comfortable, because other people are gonna give you their opinions about whether that’s a good or bad thing to want, or that you should have a better reason. So if you’re not comfortable, you can just keep it to yourself. I do that all the time. I have like little secret affairs with the things that I want. But I’m not gonna tell anyone, because they’re gonna ruin it.

Mark: Yes.

Jody: Sorry, but I do, and I’m just like, anyway, so let yourself want things. Then the third thing, and by the way, I wanna say these are not in order. It’s not like check off number one, then go on to number two. These might happen in whatever order makes sense to you. But at some point, you’re gonna need to start taking some action. Start doing something, which might happen in the very beginning even as you start figuring out what you want. I don’t think that you have to – I’m not a like, let’s clean up your thoughts before you do anything. I’m like, no, let’s get moving and pay attention to your desires and clean up your thoughts as we go because sometimes taking action will provide the clarity even about what you want.

Mark: That’s a great point.

Jody: Yeah. So I I wanted to flush out with this one. Taking action can look like all kinds of things. Obviously, it depends on what area you’re stuck in. But if it’s you know, for me, as I’ve worked on my health over the years, taking action on multiple occasions has been hiring a health coach or joining some kind of program. Or I tend to do better when it comes to my health with some support, with some encouragement, with even some accountability. So that might be your action. I don’t know what the action should be, but in a relationship, often it’s having a conversation or even just getting your own thoughts down on paper to prepare you to have a conversation, figuring out what’s true and what’s real, and maybe cleaning up some of your judgment and things like that so that you can have a conversation.

Mark: Because sometimes in a relationship, it’s not having the conversation you would normally demand or pursue from a fearful or an anxious place. I’ve admired some of my clients a lot over the years when they have noticed that they feel some fear or anxiety, and then they go to demanding conversation, demanding interaction, and instead, they’re able to calm themselves down and not talk themselves out of anything important that they want, but calm themselves down and realize that the conversation they were about to demand wasn’t fruitful, wasn’t going to be fruitful.

Jody: Yeah, for sure. Like, you don’t wanna be fueled by emotion. I’m not a nervous system expert by any means, but you don’t wanna be triggered when you’re having that conversation ideally. So you wanna be coming from calm, rational. So that might require like a little thought about what you’re gonna say. I know for me sometimes too, it’s just, I like to talk it out with someone sometimes, but like, how am I gonna even start this conversation? Like, I wanna be as honest as possible. So for me, a difficult conversation often starts with, hey, I really wanna talk to you about something, and I’m kinda nervous to even tell you, and it might be uncomfortable to hear, but like, I care about you too much not to have this conversation.

So it’s like kind of a cushion, it gives me permission to be nervous and awkward, and sometimes even like, I’m probably not gonna even make sense or say it well, so I apologize in advance for that, but I wanna open the door on this conversation. And it also prepares the other person to like, be attentive, and it’s okay. It gives us permission to feel awkward in this situation. So sometimes I have to think about that ahead of time, like, how am I gonna even start it?

Mark: I think it’s a great way to start it, for the record. Because you’re starting with honesty. I’m nervous and I’m afraid I have to be perfect in how I say this, but I’m not perfect in how I say it, and I’m I’m not totally right about this, but there’s something I really wanna share, talk about, etcetera. All that’s true, so that’s the right place to start.

Jody: Yeah. There’s two kind of sub points I wanted to talk about here under taking action, though. One of them is risk tolerance. Because I think if we go to something, like a relationship is gonna be a little bit more subjective, what kind of action do we even take. If we’re talking about, like, I wanna grow my business, then a lot of times I’m like, alright, what do you want? Where are you trying to get to? And then what do you need to do? Let’s get moving. And I used to feel badly that I wasn’t taking bigger action, let’s just say. I used to sometimes judge myself for like not thinking bigger, going bigger, whatever, especially in the world of self-help with everyone talking like – my daughter is talking about these memes you see on Instagram that are mocking all the self-help gurus and somebody will say something they want and then the guy’s like, now 10x it. Just 10x it.

Mark: Yeah.

Jody: Or like, it’s easier to make a million dollars in a week than a million dollars in a year, and they’re just spouting all these things that like, aren’t entirely untrue, but taken out of context. So, you know, I love that world actually. I’m very motivated by that kind of talk, but I don’t always then take that kind of action in my life, and I finally just came to terms with like, I don’t have a super high tolerance for risk when it comes to my money anyway. I do in other ways, like I’m not afraid to put myself out on the internet and have people judge me. That doesn’t bother me really. But when it comes to money and things like that, my risk tolerance is just lower.

I was like, I’m not investing anything in my business that I couldn’t afford to lose today. Like, if we don’t recoup it this month, or even this year, or ever, we’re still gonna be okay. That’s how much I’m willing to put into my business, and that’s not how you get to certain levels of success. So I think to keep that in mind, I do think, and we’re gonna talk about being uncomfortable in a minute, but I think you have to know your risk tolerance, and even in a relationship.

Mark: Yeah.

Jody: There’s a risk to having a vulnerable conversation. What is your tolerance for that risk?

Mark: Yeah. Because in that situation, the risk is generally gonna be you risk invalidation that you’re going to reveal some new dimension of your desire, of your personality, you’re going to reveal it, and the person to whom you’re revealing it is going to reject it, or maybe even more painful, be apathetic toward it, not care. Be indifferent toward it.

Jody: Or it makes the relationship more uncomfortable than it was.

Mark: Totally.

Jody: Because now you just shared something that they may not like hearing, and now it might make things worse, and it might eventually get better.

Mark: I think right there, you’re defining very well the risk that’s actually being taken. Because all risk implies reward. And so you’re looking for your risk tolerance because you want the reward of what’s on the other side of that gamble, that investment or bet. So you’re saying, I’m gonna reveal this new dimension of my desire or my personality. And if the person I’m in relationship with, if they acknowledge it, validate it, reciprocate it, then the relationship absolutely goes to a different level than it was before. But the risk is, if they reject it or invalidate it, then I think the relationship actually falls to a place maybe below the comfortable discomfort where it was, like the steady state, the stuckness that you talked about at the beginning of the call. So it is risky, but that’s what, growth in relationships requires.

Jody: Yeah. And you’re right. That is what risk is. And I think it goes back to, again, like, so either decide, it’s okay. I’m not stuck. I just labeled it stuck. That’s a made up thing anyway. I can keep the relationship the way it is, or I can keep my can maintain my business at the level it’s at, or my health is fine the way it is. Whatever it is. Right? I don’t have to call it stuck. I can just decide this is good, and then the portal closes. It probably will open again at some point.

Mark: Yeah. Like that. I think that’s very hopeful and right. Yeah. I like that. I don’t really believe to me, there aren’t many of those portals that truly permanently close.

Jody: Right.

Mark: That’s a hopeful thing.

Jody: We just kinda make peace with it for now. Okay. The second thing I wanna say about action before we go on to the next step is to, as much as possible, let it be fun and easy. Like, I do love the reminder that sometimes we make things very heavy, and it’s never a requirement that it be heavy. It’s not like this is just a serious subject. We have to take it really seriously. If it does get serious, it’s not wrong. I just find, like, fun is actually, I have a, it’s like one of my main values. I really value it. Enough that I’m not gonna, I will sacrifice a lot of other things before I will sacrifice fun. I don’t know why I’m wired that way, but so for example, I am pretty good at taking action in my business and letting it be fun. Like reminding myself, it’s okay to have fun with this. And that just means be playful with it.

It means lighten up about it. It means, for lack of a less cliche term, don’t be attached to the outcome of it. But all of those things to me make it more fun, focusing on the real reason behind what we’re doing. For example, like, anytime I’m in a launch in my business, in a marketing situation, it will start to feel heavy when there’s a lot of pieces and a lot of money on the line or what have you, and I remind myself like, but how cool is it that people wanna come and hear what I have to say, and they’re they’re gonna open up and share parts of their lives with me, and they’re gonna let me coach them? Like, I would pay them to let me do that. That’s how much I love doing it. So it’s okay to have fun with this. Yes, we have goals and objectives and we’re pushing ourselves, but how do I make this more fun, more playful, and lighten up a little bit around it? I think is an important part of…

Mark: I bet you’ve been asked this a thousand times, so humor me because you’ve probably answered it a thousand times. How do you help people or coach people when they say some version of, Jody says it’s supposed to be fun. I am not having fun. So not only am I failing, but I’m doing it wrong because I’m not having fun. Do people come to you with this? Are they sort of like, well, I’m not having fun, but I’m supposed to be having fun, which makes the whole thing feel even worse or something? Does that ever…

Jody: Yeah. They do come with versions of that, I would say. And it goes back to like, these are tools, not rules. I’m always saying. Right? Like this is a tool. Let it be fun is a tool, but it’s not a rule. It’s not that you should be, or you need to be, or you have to be having fun, but it’s a tool that tends to be helpful for a lot of us. And it’s actually a good segue into the fourth point, so maybe I’ll answer that as I introduce it.

The fourth thing I wanted to say is that you have to increase your tolerance for uncertainty. I think if you wanna get unstuck, you gotta so it goes back we talked about risk tolerance, but I’m calling it uncertainty here. I’m always asking myself, how do I increase my tolerance for uncertainty? Because that’s what we’re talking about here. If I’m gonna have a conversation with somebody I care about and be vulnerable, or I’m gonna try going all-in on my health goals again, or whatever it is, there’s uncertainty. Is it going to work? Is it gonna produce the outcome I want? I don’t know.

And I don’t worry about many things, but I worry about my kids growing up in a world where they do not have to tolerate uncertainty at all. They can take my phone and open up Amazon and see if their package is out for delivery and how many stops away from the house it is. And anytime we go anywhere in the car, because we moved here two years ago, so I always had the GPS on for a while, and now if I don’t, they’ll say, mom, what time is it gonna be when we get there?That’s the way they asked me the question. What time is it gonna be when they get there? And I always thought that was such a weird question that I realized they’re used to seeing on the screen, arrival time, 08:06. And they, not just them, myself as well, I’m living in the same world they are. Like, my tolerance for uncertainty has gone down so much, and that does not serve me when it comes to things like this. So I’m always asking myself, how do I increase my tolerance for uncertainty? And of course, the way to do it is to do things that are uncertain.

And back to your question you asked me about having fun, right, is that’s where I have to detach from like, again, know this sounds so cliche, but if I can’t enjoy the process of doing it regardless of the outcome, at least to certain extent. I don’t have to enjoy all the parts. I would be lying if I said I enjoy it. I enjoy everything I do in my business. I don’t. There are so many things I don’t enjoy.

But there are things that I’m willing to do because they allow me to do the parts I enjoy. And sometimes I just pause, and I say this to my clients a lot too when we’re coaching about something and they’re getting all in their heads about it, and I’ll stop and go, but are you having fun? It’s okay to have fun, you know? And sometimes just the reminder, like, it’s okay to have fun with this. What would make it more fun?

That’s one of my favorite questions for myself. What would make this easier and more fun for myself? And sometimes the answer is, like, I started working with a company last year that was gonna get my podcast I don’t know if syndicate is the right word, but, like, we were gonna have sponsors, and they were gonna help get the podcast out, they were gonna help me get a book published with a big publisher and all this. But it just got to be not fun.

Mark: Sounds miserable, frankly.

Jody: I mean, in the beginning, it’s not their fault either. It was just not – I just for me, it was not the right path at the time, and I had to come to the point where I was like, you know what would make my business more fun is if I stopped doing all of that, and I just said no to all of it. And so sometimes that’s the answer. Other times it’s a like, maybe if I chopped it up into chunks, maybe if I let AI do this part for me, or I have an employee do this part, and I’m only doing this part, maybe if I had a process that makes it simpler, so every time I sit down, I don’t have to think what am I doing today. Like, there’s all kinds of ways. Maybe I get my favorite drink, and I have music on while I’m doing it. Like, there are ways, but if you don’t stop and ask yourself that, I feel like the train gets moving, and before long, you feel like this is serious and heavy, and you have to do it. And so it’s a tool, not a rule, but those are some strategies.

Mark: I know I’ve heard you talk about this principle or mantra a lot of times, but maybe for the first time today, I’m kind of wrapping my head around it. It sounds like you’re talking about a thing that has an element of big picture thinking, gratitude. And then also, right in this moment, trying to just be a little bit more lighthearted, not hold so tightly to things.

Jody: Yeah. Have I ever told you the story of when I started working for Brooke? And that’s when I really latched onto…

Mark: Oh maybe, but it’s worth hearing again.

Jody: I mean, like, literally, because I came from corporate, we talked about how we both done sales corporate. Right? Where it’s like, you work really hard, and then you pause and have fun, like in a scavenger hunt or something, a corporate meeting with trust falls, you go bowling with – you pause, you go bowling with pizza, and then you go back to working really hard, and you better hit your numbers or you’re getting written up. And there there was fun and there’s work, and they in my experience, they were separate for the most part. Although I worked with some fun people at times, But anyway, that’s mostly how I learned.

And then I started working for Brooke, and she had, she sets big goals. And she gave me some big goals, and first time I couldn’t meet them, and I was way behind, and we get on a Zoom call, and I’m like in tears. I think I was pregnant at the time too, in my defense. But anyway, I’m like in tears, and she says, why are you crying? And I said, there’s no way I’m gonna come anywhere close to the goal that you’ve given me. And she was like, okay, but why are you crying?

And she really in that moment put her money where her mouth was in terms of like, we’re just doing this because we can and we’re not gonna be attached to the outcome. And she said to me, listen, I don’t want you to even hit that goal. What are you gonna hit? You just tell me. And I was like, this is the number I think I can hit. She’s like, just do that. I’m like, okay.

So I did that and then later on, when we revisited and we actually set even bigger goals, she’s like, hey, let’s hit this goal and you know, here’s why I wanna hit it. Here’s what’s in it for you and we had that whole conversation and then she’s but only because wouldn’t it be cool if we did that? Like, we’re just a couple women with laptops.

Mark: That was Brooke’s thing always, just sort of like wouldn’t it be fun? Wouldn’t that be weird? Wouldn’t that be…

Jody: Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, that would be cool. And she’s like, and if we don’t, who cares? Because we just made it up. We’re just sitting here right now making this up. Like, what are we gonna do? How much are we gonna charge? What are we gonna – we’re just literally And making it so if we don’t hit it, who cares? If we do, that would be cool. Right? And I was like, yeah. Actually, that would be cool. And from that moment on, I was like, that’s it. That is the energy that I’m gonna work from, and I don’t know how else to describe it.

Mark: I’m sure I have, but do you remember my story about when she launched Self-Coaching Scholars?

Jody: I think I was there.

Mark: I got there, whatever, a day or two early with Brooke and Chris for a day or two or something. And then you came in. We kinda crossed paths. It was one of the first times I really met you anyway.

Jody: And you were like, you’re insane.

Mark: She was like, I’m gonna do this thing and it’s gonna be $300 a month. And I’m never good at hiding my emotions ever. So I was like, that is the most insane thing anyone has ever proposed. $300, no one is going to pay that. No one is going to pay that. So for all you who wanna hire me as your business coach, just email me. I’m very good at this, clearly. And she was like, yeah, who cares? Because guess what? If no one signs up for this, we’ll just go back to doing what we were doing, and that was great too. And I was like, alright, you’re nuts, lady. Like, what? She made so many tens of millions of dollars with that $300 per month offer. And she was like, whatever. We’ll just do it or not.

Jody: That’s exactly what I’m talking about, with tolerance for uncertainty. Right? Like, again, like, she had to coach herself to believe that that was possible. There’s that piece of it, but it really is uncertainty. We really don’t know. There’s so many factors outside of your control. We don’t know how long it will take to figure it out. We don’t know what other problems or obstacles will show up in the in the meanwhile. But that whole attitude of, like, yeah, that would be cool if we do. Let’s go for it. And also, if we don’t, who cares?

Mark: I make, like, a big statement about this principle of uncertainty that I and I love that you’re teaching it. I think everything that we really enjoy, everything that really makes our life what we love was purchased with someone’s tolerance for uncertainty. Uncertainty. May not have been ours, it may have been someone else’s. I think that all biggest, best things, including, yeah I mean, relationships, you know, marriage, my marriage, friendships, all businesses. Certainly. But, you know…

Jody: Even, like, where you live. Your neighborhood, your ward, your whatever, your school. We think we can outrun that by doing enough research.

Mark: We can’t. Absolutely not. Every great thing in my life that has – the sources of the greatest happiness and satisfaction were purchased with uncertainty, not always mine. Like, I’ve benefited a lot, I’ve told the story a lot, but I definitely have tolerated a lot of uncertainty in my willingness to be self-employed and and things like that, so I’ve participated here as well. But for the five or six or seven years where I was working for you and Brooke and people like you, all of what I was enjoying in my business was really purchased with the collective willingness to be uncertain that you all were demonstrating in the world. And I’m still I mean, I’m still benefiting from that. So I think this uncertainty principle is pretty crucial.

Jody: Okay. Number five I have, to be willing to be the new kid.

Mark: Oh, yeah.

Jody: I think let me explain what I mean by that. But being the new kid is uncomfortable. Right? I was talking to my daughter about this because we moved to San Diego right before her senior year of high school. She was the new kid. And people always say, oh my gosh, wasn’t your daughter, like, so mad that you were moving then? And the truth is we actually asked her opinion before we decided, and she wanted to go as much as we did, and she happens to be very confident. She kinda liked the idea of being the new kid I think, but I understand why that’s uncomfortable.

And the older I get I was last week, I went to my business mastermind in Austin, Texas. I’m in a group of like 40 other entrepreneurs. Some of them are coaches, but a lot of them sell courses and not very many that do mindset work and relationship work like I do. A lot of them have very specific like, they teach people how to use QuickBooks or they teach parents how to help their picky eaters or things like this. Anyway, really great group of people. I’m one of the oldest in the group.

Mark: Really?

Jody: Okay. So this…

Mark: That really surprises me.

Jody: There’s a lot of just young parents, meaning their kids are elementary school or they’re still having babies even. There’s even a couple of individuals or couples in, like, their twenties living their best lives. And so I know they look at me like I’m way older than what I feel even, but I’m, like, one of the older ones in the group. And every now and then, I’ll say something because I have a little bit of experience and wisdom, and they are like, that was brilliant, Jody Moore, like every time you open your mouth, such wisdom. And I won’t lie, I like that, I like feeling like I have something to add that they think is wise, but I also push myself to go, I don’t have any idea what you’re talking about right now. Could you please slow it down?

Because they’re better at tech than me. Their brains do work a little faster than mine. I’m not saying I’m like one foot in the grave yet, but I already can see the difference of like their ability to pick up on learning something with the Facebook algorithm or whatever, like they get it, and I’m like, hold on. Slow down. I have no idea what you’re talking about. Or even like, we stayed at this resort in Sedona once, this huge resort, and in Sedona, they have a light ordinance where they don’t like lights because of light pollution, they wanna be able to see the stars in Sedona.

So it’s this huge resort, pitch dark, and there are like 50 little villages that you’re staying in and they all look exactly the same. So we would finish like dinner at this one part of the resort, and then I remember being like, I don’t know how to get back to my room, and I’m kinda scared to walk by myself in the dark out in the middle of the Arizona desert, and I would just be like, I guess I’m just gonna own being like the little old lady here, like, could someone walk me to my room? Because I’m kind of scared, and I don’t know where I’m going, and that requires me overcoming this part of my brain that’s embarrassed of that, or whatever I make it mean.

But obviously, what I’m trying to do is be comfortable being new so that I can keep learning and growing. And that means not being good at things, even in front of other people. And when you’re stuck, there’s something you need to learn. There’s some way you need to grow. And I don’t know why after age 25, we think we should know everything, but we just don’t.

Mark: Do you often have your clients say things to you like, I know I should know this by now, or they’ll even say, you’re thinking I should already know this. They’ll say that to me. I was like, well, I know what you’re thinking. You’re thinking I should have already figured this all out by now. I was like…

Jody: You’re like, really? Because I’m definitely not thinking that.

Mark: I have never thought that. I’m not this. So you’re projecting I that onto me.

Jody: I know I should know this by now. I should have done the even they know it, but they haven’t done it. Those are two different things. Right? I’ll coach health coaches who are like, I know this. I teach my clients this, but I can’t get myself to do it. Okay. Well, you’re still – be the new kid. Be the one who knows it intellectually, but can’t get yourself to do it. You’re just not there yet. And who cares that you’ve known this for fifteen years?

Like, I had a lady come to I did a three day intensive called Sales School earlier this year. It was all just increasing people’s sales skills. And there was a woman there who was probably in her late sixties, early seventies, who I had never seen before or talked to before, and she sells real estate and helps other real estate agents. And at one point, when she raised her hand to participate, she said – because it became apparent that she’s very good at selling. She’s sold real estate for a long time. She helps other realtors now.

And so when I asked her, why are you here? She said, I like to put myself in rooms where I don’t know people and where I feel uncomfortable and where I think I might learn something. And she said, that’s what keeps me mentally young. She said people age partly because they stop putting themselves in rooms where they’re uncomfortable and this was uncomfortable for me, so that’s why I’m here.

Mark: I could use a bigger dose of that. For quite a few years now, I’ve noticed, and I’ve said to Kate, I’ve said, do you notice how as people age, they seem to not only wrestle more with their neuroses, they seem to build walls around them? So they become, like, even more protective. This is the way I am. This is how I like things. I don’t deviate from this. And I have plenty of that in myself too. So what you’re saying right now is really helpful to me to look at. I wanna look at ways that I can directly confront myself with the walls I’m building around my own comfort zone and my own neuroses. And because I do believe that that’s a way – to accelerate the way to accelerate aging is to stagnate. I’m just restating what your client said, but I agree with her.

Jody: Yeah. That’s an interesting way to describe it. We put walls around it. And again, I don’t think that anyone needs to feel bad about that. I just think if you’re dissatisfied, if you’re telling yourself I’m stuck in this area, then you may need to take a look at like, okay, it’s time to get uncomfortable. It’s time to be the new kid. It’s time to say, don’t get this. Can you slow it down a little and explain it to me on my level? Because I don’t understand what you’re talking about. And that’s actually so – we think people are gonna judge us for that. It’s actually so lovable.

Mark: It’s endearing. It’s attractive. And there’s something beautiful about doing it in your, maybe, forties, fifties, and beyond because, hopefully, when we’re in our forties, fifties, and beyond, we’re a lot more comfortable with who we actually are and we like ourselves, and we understand our strengths, we’ve gone through enough self-acceptance that we can say, it’s okay to be the new kid because I’m solid in who I am.

Jody: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You don’t make it mean something about your worth. The next one, we’ll go through these last two kinda quickly, but I almost wanted to do and maybe we will do a future episode, I almost wanted to do a whole one on when to quit. Because I get that asked that question a lot. When is it okay to walk away from this and decide I don’t wanna do it, and when is it quitting? Which I think what’s wrong with quitting first of all, there’s a whole, you know, school of thought around that. So for lack of a better word, when is it okay to go, never mind, I’m done working on this marriage, or I’m not gonna grow this business, I decided. And so this is just a – I don’t know if this is useful. I definitely wouldn’t say this is a rule. This is a tool.

So consider whether or not it’s useful to anybody listening. But I like to give myself benchmarks of when I’m allowed to reconsider the decision because I know I’ll be tempted to quit when it gets hard, it’s just human nature, and I’m very good at rationalizing to myself why it’s the right decision, but then sometimes I look back and and I know the reality was I just want it out of the discomfort. So I like to set benchmarks. For example, you know, if it’s in my business, I literally did this in the beginning. I was very excited about my business in the beginning. So I knew that I had a lot in me. I would be willing to tolerate a lot of discomfort. So I said, once I have taught this work to 500 women, I can decide if I want to keep going or not.

Mark: Okay.

Jody: And that was a big number, but it kind of excited me. It kinda lit me up and it made me keep going to like, well, I gotta get to 500. And of course, once I got to 500, I wouldn’t want to quit. Right? Other times, have smaller benchmarks around other areas that are harder for me if I’m gonna like, I’m even thinking about in my business now, like, challenging myself to create more content in different ways, and both outside, like, marketing content, but also even within my own business. And so I’m thinking about giving myself, like, two hours every workday, which is only four days a week, but two hours of every workday, I have to be in creation mode, and I’ll define what that means for myself.

But I think I’ll say, that’s gonna be the norm, but I do that until January 1, and then I reassess. Is that serving me? Do I wanna keep doing that? So I think having a benchmark like that, whether it’s a timeline, a metric you get to, even just, I’m gonna try this for thirty days, I find to be really helpful because otherwise, it’s gonna get hard probably. You’re gonna wanna quit.

Mark: It’s obviously served you really well. You have as I think I’ve said before on this podcast, ou’ve shown such stamina for the work that you do. Along these same lines, because quitting is one of the challenges well, it’s also one of my strengths. You’ve been kind, and you’ve been helpful to me in seeing that sometimes my willingness to walk away from things is one of my strengths. So I appreciate you framing it that way with me, for me.

However, there are lots of times when I walk away from things and they’re not finished yet. For me, the test is, and this usually comes in conversation with a coach or a trusted other of some kind, before I walk away, have I really dealt with myself and am I telling myself the truth? Am I or am I doing my thing where I can be so articulate in justifying quitting? I can put big words together. I can make an unbelievable case for quitting. And it’s kinda one of my – it’s an Achilles’ heel. I don’t always do it, but it’s something I have to be on the lookout for. So it’s really an emotional thing where I have to check-in with myself and, like, but have you dealt with yourself? Have you faced yourself in the way that you know that doing interesting things requires? And are you telling yourself the truth about the whole deal? And if the answer is no, then it’s like, alright, then sort yourself out. Let’s do it again tomorrow.

Jody: Yeah. I like that. I I do think we could do a I think whole…

Mark: It’s a great topic.

Jody: Yeah. So, like I said, in terms of this one, if you if that’s useful, give yourself a benchmark. I don’t think it’s a rule by any means, but I like to challenge myself. Last one I have on here, number seven, is to find or create processes that will keep you focused. Or keep you moving forward.

Mark: Yeah, I was going to say focused or just progressing in spite of yourself eve.

Jody: Do you have any examples of this in, like, relationship type work? Because I think it can I even apply there.

Mark: I don’t know if I’ve asked myself that question in relationships? It would be in making pro relationship things habitual, where the habit is strong, even if the enthusiasm of the individuals is low, which is an easy way to say it, but I don’t – I wonder if I have any examples of that. I’m gonna think about it.

Jody: I have one I can share, actually. Maybe it’ll trigger you. So my husband and I are very good at low conflict.

Mark: Yeah, you two are. You guys don’t fight.

Jody: No, we don’t. Every now and then, we get kind of annoyed, and then one of us works it out or gets over it. We could stand to communicate more. But we have had times in our marriage where we really were going through some things and needed to communicate better than we do right now. And this was actually recommended to us by our therapist at the time, was that we got a journal, and especially for Jake, I’m a talker, but Jake tends to be able to articulate himself better in writing.

Mark: Oh, okay.

Jody: And in fact, sometimes he’ll write things down that I’m like, wow, I’ve never heard you say anything quite like that. He just, for some reason, formulates his thoughts better, and I don’t even think that he sits in, overthinks it or anything. He just can write it down better. So we got a journal, and the rule was that you can write a message to the other person and leave it for them, but you cannot have an expectation about how quickly they’re gonna reply or read anything into it if they take a little while, you know. And so that’s what we did, and and he would write a little something to me, and I would write a little something back to him, and then of course, that did lead to verbally communicating about some things.

We kept that up for a pretty long time, like this journal that just got passed back and forth where we could articulate our thoughts. And that’s just, I think, an example of, like, a process or a system rather than, like, don’t forget, you guys need to keep talking this. That about worked pretty well. I mean, it’s this is what date night is. When people say, go on a date every week. Like, this is just a process or system to make sure that you’re spending time together, that you’re having fun together. And I don’t think any of these should be rules, but what’s gonna work for you in your relationship?

Mark: What I like about what you’re saying, as you’re saying it, it occurs to me that these are agreements that you can make, and the agreement itself fulfilling the agreement has its benefits. And, also, if the agreement gets broken, that is significant information. And it’s not nothing. It’s not, oh, we got busy. Oh, we’ve been so busy. No. Yes. We’re all busy. Everyone every human being is busy. So what’s interesting to me about what you’re saying is if you make these commitments, then the commitments become canaries in the coal mine.

I was working with a couple for a while where talking was not productive at the moment. But I didn’t want them to not speak to each other. So I asked them if they would consider, going for a daily walk of at least thirty minutes, where they would walk next to each other, but no talking and no touching. Like, no holding hands.

Jody: That sounds awkward.

Mark: And, right, unless you’re both at home in who you are and at home in your relationship. Their relationship at the moment was pretty high conflict, but they did it a handful of times, and they would come back and report that it was an incredible experience.

Jody: How so?

Mark: Well, your case, it was because they both had kind of their individual patterns. We all have these. We all have these things where it’s like, we slip into our ruts that sort of disrupt the relationship or make the relationship make it harder for the relationship to stay intimate the way we say we want it to. In this case, the wife was kind of always making demands, and along with her demands, there’d be a lot of criticism. And that was coming from her fear and her anxiety and from some past hurts. And then the husband, he was always kind of in retreat, but the way he would retreat was that he was always trying to placate and please her and try to catch up to her demands. And so he was sort of always checking in with her. Am I okay? Are we okay? Are you mad? Are you upset?

It was this very – you can imagine what the dynamic was like. Well, when you make them walk together in silence, and she’s not allowed to demand follow-up or criticize, and he’s not allowed to check-in to make sure everything’s okay, and they both just have to sit there and feel uncomfortable and anxious and afraid, but they’re physically moving forward through space together, next to each other, so it’s non confrontational. Eye contact is a very confrontational, very intimate thing. Right? But they get to walk together through space, shoulder to shoulder ish, and I told them, I predicted that as they walked, their emotions would rise and fall. The anxiety would surge and then it would dissipate, then it would surge again and then it would dissipate.

And they said that’s exactly what happened. They would feel an urge, he would feel an urge to say, Are you mad at me? But he wasn’t allowed to say, Are you mad at me? So he just had to keep walking. And then by the time they got home, they were both like, yeah, we just felt relaxed. We were just good.

Jody: That’s awesome. It’s almost like it breaks the, you know, the reinforcement you’re trying to get. I’m not – I have not studied OCD at all, but I I do believe that that’s what feeds OCD is the continued external reinforcement, right, versus, like, breaking it and not giving it changes something. And also, it’s interesting you talk about walking. Right? I just heard Rick Rubin. You know Rick Rubin? Probably music industry. Music guy. Say that years ago, he’d stopped taking meetings in offices. He will only meet with someone if they’re walking.

And he said it, he did it more, and I wanna say he did it partially because he was tired of sitting around all day and he wanted to move his body, but he did say, like, an unintended result was he lost a bunch of weight, but he said it changed the dynamic of the meeting when they were moving and the scenery. He’s like, even just having visual cues happen outside of us in the world that were changing all the time. That’s interesting. Anyway.

Mark: When they would come back to session and report that they hadn’t done that at all, the fact that they hadn’t done it was a strong, strong indicator of what, you know, the previous week or two had been like in the relationship. So I’m agreeing with your idea that you create these systems, which are effectively agreements, because following through in the agreements have – there are benefits there. But then if the agreements aren’t kept, that’s important information about what’s going on.

Jody: Yeah. And if we take this more to personal goals, whatever other personal goals people may have, I do think having a system, and I’m not saying it has to like, I said I was gonna create for two days, four days a week.

Mark: Two hours.

Jody: Or excuse me, two hours a day, four days a week when I work. That’s actually maybe too high of an expectation for myself because it’s a pretty drastic change from where I have been depending on how I define creation, I guess. So I’m not saying you have to be like, for the next thirty days, I’m gonna no sugar every day or that it has to be an extreme. I think for me anyway, I do better with just a more realistic, like, just take a step towards what I want that’s a little bit better than what I’ve been doing.

But having a system or a process just takes out just doing what I feel like doing in the moment, which is what I do otherwise. So it’s like, no. At this time, on this like, if I were to – when I schedule those two creation hours on my working days, I won’t feel like doing it 80% of the time. But I’ll do it because I put it in my calendar, and I have a system I’m following. And so again, this is another tool, not a rule. I don’t want people to come and go, I know you said I should do this, and I should stick to it, but I’m not doing it. Then maybe you don’t wanna that.

But having a process, I am not a process person, for the record. I much prefer to live spontaneously, and it takes me a while to even think of what is the process gonna be. But when I have one, it makes my life easier. It creates more of what I want. It’s just I have gotten pretty disciplined about, like, I said I was gonna do this at this time, so I’m just gonna do it, even though I don’t feel like it. Just pretty useful.

Mark: Yeah. Love it.

Jody: Alright. That’s what we got today. Get unstuck, people. Stop being stuck.

Mark: To be honest, Jody, I think you came up with a really good list there. A person were describing themselves as stuck, I think some combination of those seven would really either get them moving or at least reveal to them why they aren’t moving.

Jody: Yeah. And that’s all we wanna do. I just wanna stir the pot. Either get moving or stop calling it stuck. And just decide, I’m just content.

Mark: I’m choosing this.

Jody: I’m choosing not to progress in this area. That’s fine. There’s always plenty of other areas you could look at. So alright. Well, thanks for your time, Mark.

Hey everybody, thanks for listening today. Please do me a favor and make sure you’re following or subscribed to the show if you got a lot out of this and share it with a friend. Make sure you never miss an episode and help me spread the message of mental and emotional health and creating your best life. I’ll see you next time.