431. Organized Living with Shira Gill

I’m Jody Moore and this is Better Than Happy, episode 431, Organized Living with Shira Gill.

This is Better Than Happy, the podcast where we study what the healthiest, most successful people in today’s world think, feel and do. And we leverage this knowledge to create our best lives. Are you ready, little bird? Let’s fly.

Hello my friends. Today I have a really fun episode in store for you. Shira Gill has been a friend and colleague of mine for many years. We know each other through The life Coach school community where we both were trained as certified coaches. Shira has used her coaching to supplement all of the other expertise that she has in helping us live less cluttered lives, beginning in our homes, I should say, beginning in your brain.

And understanding the psychology behind why we have so much clutter, why we gather more than we need, buy more than we need, why we don’t get rid of things, why we don’t put things away. It’s a big psychological problem at its root. And I think it impacts us more than maybe we realize. I don’t want this to be something that hangs over your head like I know I should clean out that closet, I should be less cluttered. That’s not what I’m about and that’s not what Shira’s about.

And that’s not what we’re going to talk about today. We have some really fascinating conversations around the psychology of clutter. And I think that understanding that you will find totally empowers you to make changes. And what I love about Shira’s work is she’s all about small, completely doable habits that ultimately lead to an amazing result.

She also has a beautiful new book out to supplement this topic called Organized Living, where she traveled all over and visited all kinds of organizers to gather best practices and examples for us. So you don’t have to have a gigantic house to do this. You don’t have to have a lot of money and fancy storage containers. Shira makes it all relatable and doable regardless of your situation.

So make sure after you check out this conversation, if you like what Shira has to say that you grab her new book Organized Living. I’ve got it right here on my desktop. It is beautiful. So proud of you, Shira Gill, please enjoy this conversation.

                                                                                                                   

Jody: Okay, everybody, I’ve got my friend Shira Gill back on the podcast today. Hi, Shira.

Shira: I’m so happy to be back.

Jody: So happy to have you. It’s been far too long since I’ve seen you and even too long since I’ve talked to you. So I’m glad you’re here. Really, Shira and I are just going to catch up on our personal lives, we thought you guys might want to listen in.

Shira: Come along for the ride.

Jody: I think people like that actually. Okay, so, Shira, I’ve got to say I feel really special every time I see your book Minimalista.

Shira: Minimalista.

Jody: It’s in all the cool places, in Anthropology and all the fancy bookstores. And now you have a new book that we’re going to talk about but I just want to mention that. And you’re in all the big fancy magazines. You’re kind of a big deal these days. Tell us.

Shira: Stop. I’m not going to tell you.

Jody: Why? We want to know.

Shira: Shira’s saying now I’m blushing.

Jody: No, this is called building credibility.

Shira: Building, okay, yes, I am a big deal, Jody Moore, and I’ve done all the things.

Jody: She really is, you guys. Okay, so let me back up. Shira is a home organization specialist. What do you call yourself?

Shira: Yeah, I’m a home organizing expert and author.

Jody: Yes, and author. We have a little video here. We’ll put a little bit of this on Instagram because Shira’s home, of course, she practices what she preaches, which I appreciate. Honestly, not everybody does. So there’s a lot of things we could dive in here today. I was thinking about you over the last couple days knowing I was going to get to talk to you.

And I think there’s a lot of interesting psychology around why we have so much stuff. Why we have a hard time getting rid of stuff and what that stuff is doing in our lives, which I do think we should get into some of that. But as I was thinking about what does my audience really want to know from Shira? We’re interested in that and how do we keep up on keeping our homes more organized and more clean? But I think there’s also a good portion of my audience that also feels really passionate about home organization and wants to know how do you make money at it?

Shira: Fun, okay.

Jody: Tell us just a little bit about your journey or any tips or anything in that regard.

Shira: Yeah. So it’s funny, I started my career kind of by accident. I was laid off when I was eight months pregnant with my first daughter. And I had a high-powered event planning job that I was not very happy at or with. And so I got laid off, I was eight months pregnant and it was just like, oh my gosh, what am I going to do? I need a way to make money. I’m pregnant. Who’s going to hire me?

And so it was this really accidental career where basically all of my girlfriends kind of rallied around me. And they said, “You know how you’ve always helped me clean out my closet or tidy my space or organize my desk. I think that people need this. I think that you could do this.” So I track time because I was pregnant with my first and she’s now a 15 year old teenager. So it was 15 years ago and there was no Marie Kondo. There was no Home Edit. Home organizing was not a profession that anybody had heard of.

And so frankly, I thought my friends were nuts and I was like, “Nobody’s going to pay me to do this.” But I was in kind of a desperate situation. I was convinced no one was going to hire me because I was eight months pregnant. And I didn’t really enjoy what I was doing anyway. So I didn’t want another event planning job. So I kind of thought, well, why not? Why not just try it? Because here I am and I’ve got to figure something out. And so what I did is when we started tracking, I’m in California. So childcare is wildly expensive.

And so when we kind of figured out how much would it cost for me to get a full-time job and then for us to pay for full-time childcare, it almost didn’t really make sense. I would be working just to pay for childcare and there would be no money left over. So what we decided is that I would stay home with our daughter. And on the weekends, I would see clients, I would see organizing and decluttering clients. So the longest I could be away from my daughter at first was three to four hours.

And so I literally structured my business around being a mom. And so I built this business where I was like, “I can help you declutter and organize anything in three hours.” And so it was kind of a fun pitch, because also, the people that I was helping for the most part were also busy moms. And so they were like, “Three hours is great, I can set that aside, weekends are great.” And so that is how my business began. I literally put out an email to everyone I had ever met, including my dentist saying, “I have launched a business. I can help you with clutter, organization, styling, anything you need.”

And people just started writing back and saying, “Okay, well here’s this thing that’s been stumping me for years, could you come over and help me?” I didn’t do any paid advertising. I had never heard of a Facebook ad. This was kind of even pre social media, so it was so scrappy. I cannot emphasize enough how scrappy my business was. It was a cobbled together, my first website. I made postcards with a friend and literally walked around my neighborhood dropping them at cafes.

I kind of credit my success to just being willing to take any business and say yes and show up. And I just thought I was so thrilled that people wanted to pay me money to do this thing that I loved. That I would ask them at the beginning of our session, “What would be a home run for you? What would be success when I walk out of here in three hours?” And whatever they said I was like, “Well, that is my mission, let’s do it.” And so I just kind of threw myself in and I guess the rest is history.. That’s how it all began.

Jody: So if you were talking to someone today then in the world of social media and now knowing what you know and they’re just like, “Where do I begin?” Well, actually before you even answer that question, I want to hear your answer. But first I want to just kind of emphasize to anybody listening that Shira, what I hear you describing in your mindset is I just need to find people that want this and I’ll just go try whatever I can to find them even with whatever advice you’re about to give.

And the advice that I give to entrepreneurs, it comes down to when you are passionate about what you do and you know you can help people, you just are willing to go out there and find those people that want your help. And that’s the hard part, starting your business. It is the hardest part. I think we all would describe ourselves as, at least I was definitely very scrappy and still am sometimes.

But that scrappy energy, when you use that word, scrappy, it reminded me of my daughter who used to play volleyball and she’s not very tall but she’s fast. And they always said, “She’s really valuable to our team because she’s so scrappy.” Meaning, she’ll get to the ball, she’ll run around to wherever she needs to go. So that’s the same idea in your business. You kind of have to run to wherever you need to go to catch the ball, to get your business up and running.

Shira: Yes, 1,000%. I mean I tried so many things that didn’t work at the beginning. I literally took my family walking around wealthy neighborhoods, handing out postcards. None of those people called me. That was not a hit, but who knows? What I found was, it was back in the day where Yelp was a big deal. And so every single client that I had, I would say, “Would you be so kind as to post a Yelp review for me? I’m developing my business, it would be such a big help.”

And because I did that early on I became the top rated professional organizer on Yelp. So anyone searching, I would just go right up to the top. And that again was free. I wasn’t paying for ads. I didn’t even have a clue how to set up an ad and still don’t, to be honest. My whole business has been, I think over-delivering and I think that’s something we both learned and I know you teach. But this idea of I’m going to treat each client like they’re my only client and I’m going to make them feel so special.

And it pays off karmically if you make someone feel good and you help them, they end up telling their friends and their neighbors and their mom and their girlfriend. And I’ve seen even now, I mentor lots of people who are organizers. I think I’ve mentored over 100 people. And what I see is the success rate when people are super successful, it’s not that they figured out the best ad, it’s that they overdeliver. They show up with this kind of infectious energy of I’m here, let’s do this.

And they use their local network and community. And I think that’s what was so powerful for me was the power of local moms groups is unbelievable because you trust your fellow moms. There’s something where I live called the Berkeley Parents Network. And you can go on and say, “I’m looking for the best stroller, help.” And you’ll get 50 women saying, “Okay, I tried every stroller, this is the one you need to get.” And it’s l this shorthand .

And so getting written up on moms groups like that where people didn’t want to do all the research and they would just read someone saying, “This woman, Shira came and she changed my life, hire her immediately.” That was huge. So I would say local opportunities, I think, can be even more powerful than national. I have a very large, engaged Instagram following. But most of those people are not the people that are hiring me because they don’t live anywhere near me.

Some of those people are in Australia. So they admire my work and it’s fun to have a relationship with them. But really, when I was doing the one-on-one home organizing, the people that were hiring me were in my neighborhood and my community and my mom’s group and my school. So I really think, don’t underestimate leveraging those local connections.

Jody: Yeah, so good. Okay, well, I just love reminding people that it is a viable way to make money. And I think making a really positive contribution in our world beyond just it looks better. Let’s dive into that a little bit. And I’m going to include myself in this. I’ve worked with you before. You’ve helped me do some decluttering. And I really value some of the things, some of the mindset pieces you gave me.

For example, I remember you saying to me that clutter is just delayed decisions in a lot of cases. I was like, “What?” I kind of pride myself on being a fast decision maker and a pretty confident decision maker and I was like, “She’s right.”

Shira: What’s this? What are these files?

Jody: Am I going to keep that or not is one decision. If I am going to keep it, where’s it going to go?

Shira: Exactly, yeah. Those are the decisions.

Jody: Those are the main decisions, if I’m going to get rid of it, is it trash or am I going to donate it or am I going to sell it? I guess, would be more decisions. It’s actually a lot of decisions and just they have to be made at some point if we’re going to figure it out.

Shira: Yeah. You’ve totally identified, I think the biggest block for people with organizing is that it requires a lot of mental work because organizing is one decision after another. And I think it creates sometimes for people a paralysis of even just looking at, I remember we did a pile of papers on your desk and you were like, “I’m tired of staring at this pile.” And I kind of sat with you and supported you to look at each thing and decide.

Jody: Because I’m like, “I don’t want to look at them though.” Yeah.

Shira: It’s mental fatigue. And so for that reason I often tell people, ”Break organizing into 15 minute wins.” You don’t need to take off two weeks of work and organize your entire house, in fact, please don’t. But take one drawer and clean it out, wipe it down, put back the things that belong in the drawer, relocate or donate or recycle the rest. I have found people get so overwhelmed. And that’s really why early in my business, it’s funny because I only had three to four hours to spend with people, but I found that at that point my clients were like, “I’ve got to take a break.”

Jody: Yeah, that’s the most I can do in one sitting.

Shira: For sure, yeah. I think a half day is like a boot camp experience for most people. And so if you’re organizing alone and you do find it overwhelming, I always say. “Just make it super micro.” I think beyond that, there’s also a lot of guilt and shame associated with organizing that I’ve seen crop up, especially for women. This kind of myth that we should always have it perfectly together. Our homes should be perfectly curated and the expectation is so high.

And even the kind of compare and despair of seeing all of the perfect curated images on Instagram or Pinterest or wherever we’re scrolling. There’s this sense of, I should be like that. And a big part of why I do the work that I do is to prove that there is no one size fits all way to organize. Some people love to elevate and buy all the matching bins and baskets and color code and use labels. And I have had some clients that are perfectly content to throw things in a shoe box and say, “Now I know where to find these things, great, problem solved.”

So I do just want to give people the freedom that you get to pick your organizing style and what works best for you and your family. And that doesn’t have to be editorial or magazine worthy unless you want it to be.

Jody: Yeah. And if it is going to be then expect that you’re going to have to keep up on that as I’ve discovered. The decanted things in my pantry, if we get home from grocery shopping and nobody puts the new food in the containers then we just have an even bigger mess. So I found I had to , I wanted, I love the look of everything is matching and labeled and whatever. But I have to be realistic about what are we going to maintain?

Shira: Yeah. For that reason I have one big basket that I just call ‘kid snacks’ because my kids are not expert decanters. They’re not invested in my mission, so they just throw all of their snacks and bars and open chip bags that make me crazy, but it’s all contained in one pretty basket. So you can find those kinds of compromises too.

Jody: Yeah, that’s good. So the question I also wanted to ask you is, why do we keep, from a psychological mindset standpoint, why do you think we buy so much more crap than we need? And for me, the area I do this in is clothes. I’m pretty good in the rest of my life, but I just keep buying clothes.

Shira: Yeah. It’s the same reason we do anything, because we think it will make us feel better. So when you’re buying new clothes you probably have some little fun flicker in your brain that’s telling you this will make you feel a certain way. I don’t know what that, can you identify what that little dopamine hit is for you?

Jody: I think as far as I can tell and I think it’s gotten worse for me now that everything’s online. I pretty much do all my shopping online because I know what stores I like and what size I wear at those stores. And so I think now it’s a double dose. So when I buy it, I get a little hit of excitement of something to look forward to. Then knowing it’s on the way is kind of fun anticipating. And then when it shows up at the door, I get another hit.

And I notice that immediately the joy or whatever I’m getting starts to decline as soon as it arrives, even if I put it on and I like it. And I think it’s cute and it fits me well and I’m going to keep it. It’s kind of just the anticipation of something fun coming in my life [crosstalk].

Shira: Totally. Yeah, I love that. And so if I were coaching you and you wanted to stop shopping as much, I would say, “How can you channel that kind of joyful anticipation into something else that doesn’t involve shopping?” Maybe it’s planning a trip to Paris or something that’s experiential. I almost love planning a trip more than going on a trip. And I will plan a trip for my family a year away.

Right now I’m planning for us to go to Thailand in a year. And just the idea of us going to Thailand is so exciting to me that it’s almost like I don’t need to go to Thailand. So I think identifying other things that you can get your brain super excited about the anticipation of. And I would just suggest something experiential as an alternative to the shopping.

Because we know that you don’t need more clothes and that then when those things arrive, you have to deal with breaking down boxes and maybe returning and then it just becomes a big pain. So I think if you also remind yourself, for me that really helps because I have the same thing. I love the dopamine rush of a new thing is coming and it’s on the way. And then the thing comes and I hate recycling cardboard. And so even just that, you’re like, “I don’t want more cardboard by the front door.”

I don’t want credit card debt. If you focus on what is going to be the net outcome of this move that I’m making, that’s going to feel good for three seconds. But also to answer your question, I mean what I have seen a lot is shopping like any kind of addictive practice, eating or drinking or mindlessly scrolling typically comes from some sense of lack or some bigger desire. And I’ve seen a lot with my clients. It comes from boredom, restlessness, dissatisfaction overall in your life.

And so starting to look at, if I don’t shop and I let myself just feel this longing, whatever it is, whether it’s loneliness or boredom or sadness, if you just can let yourself feel those things or identify what are they? What is the bigger longing? Then you can solve for that because guaranteed the new blouse or the new whatever is not going to solve it. I have had women who have literally identified, I’m just bored and I lost my identity after having kids and I don’t know who I am anymore.

And putting yourself on a voluntary purchase pause, when I’m working with a new client, I always have them go on a one month purchase pause. So that they can experience that longing and know what it is that they want. Do they even want it or care about it a week later? What were they feeling when they wanted it? You can learn so much about yourself from observing when you have the desire to consume. I think it’s pretty fascinating.

If you can look at it with that observing non-judgmental eye and have empathy for yourself. I’ll be like, “Oh, Shira, you’re bored. Go call a friend, take a walk.” Or you’re sad, you’re missing your dad. Maybe set up a coaching call or cry or call a girlfriend. But identifying where is that thing really coming from?

Jody: I love that and you’re right, that really resonates for me of just the little temporary, I can look forward to this. It’s so unsatisfying and it almost feels icky to me because I don’t want more stuff. And it feels gluttonous and wasteful and all of those things versus like you said, really discovering what’s lacking in my life or planning something. I love the idea of planning a trip a year from now. And just being able to think about it and plan for it and anticipate that. It just feels, yeah, a better fit.

I heard this saying recently, it made me think of you actually. I can’t remember where I heard it, but somebody said, “The stuff in your house talks to you.” And I was like, “What? I don’t know if I believe.” Are we getting Marie Kondo here or what? Then I just started thinking about it and noticing, yeah, I’ve got these supplements that I take when I eat lunch and I put them here or else I forget, but kind of clutter. And I’ve got these old batteries from my mic that I need to go figure out how we dispose of those.

So that every time I look at my stuff, I’m like, “I should put those away. I need to figure out where to put the batteries.” It’s true, my stuff talks to me because I have thoughts about all of it, about a lot of it anyway. Other people’s stuff doesn’t talk to me because I don’t walk into someone else’s house very often and think they should clean that up, they should whatever. It’s our own stuff that we have all the thoughts about. And I realized, oh, my gosh, it’s so true. Every time I walk in my closet and it’s overflowing, I think I need to get rid of some stuff.

I should get rid of that dress, I never wear it, but I spent a lot of money on it. Should I sell it, should I? I have this whole conversation every time and no wonder we’re exhausted.

Shira: So common, and I think we are in such a high stimulation point of life with technology and apps. And everything can feel overstimulating but then when you go home and your stuff feels overstimulating, it can really feel unbearable for people. And I think of it as this great opportunity, we have so little control in the world. But our physical space is something we have full control over, how we set it up, what we buy or don’t buy, where we put things, how we care for our things.

And the good news is decision making is so deeply satisfying to the brain. I think being in that state of limbo is exhausting. But if you can put some limits on it, I’m going to set a timer for 15 minutes and just make decisions about the stuff on my desk and see what I can do in 15 minutes. Or if I’m still staring at this thing to return a week from now. I’m just going to give it to my sister and I’m not even going to return it. But putting boundaries on those things.

I knew an organizer once that would have her clients put post-its on all of her things that said a deadline for making a decision around it. And if they hadn’t decided, they just had to throw it all away. And I was like, “That’s good.” Because I think you’re right, clutter is delayed decision making and delayed decision making is exhausting. And everything that we own is something that we then, our brains have to process. We have to make decisions around it. We have to clean it and organize it and maintain it and eventually dispose of it.

I mean this is why I became a minimalist because I was like, “Life is overwhelming enough. I want to have as little stuff to be responsible for as possible.” And that has completely opened up so much freedom in my life, having less to manage.

Jody: I’m in, I’m on board with it. I sometimes do hear your voice in my head and then go, “Shira, would be really disappointed in me or Shira would be so proud of me.”

Shira: Yeah, totally the latter. I’m always proud of you.

Speaker: There’s some of both. But I do definitely feel the freedom of following through on that. I guess I wanted to ask you one other question because I know you’re immersed in this world. Do you have any suggestions about, I know online, aren’t there all kinds of places that are really awesome for selling clothes or items or things? What do you recommend in terms of resources?

Shira: Yeah. My number one resource, it’s funny because I’m no longer on Facebook but is, buy nothing groups which are hosted through Facebook. So you can go on Facebook and just search for local buy nothing group and it’s a community neighborhood based resource where essentially if you want to get rid of something, you just post it and somebody in your neighborhood who’s thrilled to own whatever that thing or set of things is, will come pick it up. And if you’re looking for something, you can also get something for free.

Jody: So this is not like Facebook Marketplace? You’re not selling stuff. This is free stuff, you’re giving away.

Shira: No, it’s different. Yeah, this is free. If you just want to be done with it but you want it to go to a good home, which is so satisfying because sometimes you’re like, “I bought all these things. They’re super nice. I don’t want them to end up in the landfill.” But you can basically snap a picture and post them just like a neighborhood group or a mom’s group. I typically deter people from doing eBay, Poshmark, all of that unless you really do need the money and you have the time.

So I used to do that all of the time. I found it draining. And then you have to go to the post office and then you have to answer people’s questions. So it’s just about asking yourself, “What is the goal? Is the goal to just lighten the load as quickly as possible or are you really interested in recovering the money? And do you have the time to do that? Because it is time consuming. If you do have the time, eBay, Poshmark, thredUP are all great resources.

Otherwise, I would say connecting with your local church or library or school and just saying, “Hey, I have these things.” I remember I asked my pre-school when my kids were young. We have all of these great games and puzzles that my kids never use and they were like, “Excellent. We would love them for our toy library.” So that kind of thing feels great because you’re helping someone and you’re lightening your load. So I always just say, look for those opportunities within your local community.

So as you mentioned, Facebook Marketplace, buy nothing groups, but also just your local mom’s group or church group where you can just say, “I have these things, would anybody like to take them off my hands?”

Jody: Yeah, that’s awesome, okay, I love that. And I love that mindset of what is the objective here? And sometimes the objective is I want to recoup some money off of these items and that’s fine if that’s your objective. But expect to put in the time and the effort and everything. And then don’t think that you’re being wasteful if you decide, my objective isn’t to make money. I just want them to go to a good place. I want them to ideally get re-used. I want to get the clutter out of my house. That is totally fine too.

I have taken brand new clothes with tags still on them and donated them and my brain’s like, “You should probably sell that.” I’m like, “But I don’t want to put the time and effort into selling it. I would much rather it just go, hopefully someone will be really excited to get something brand new with tags still on it.”

Shira: Totally. That’s my favorite thing is to just be radically generous and be like, “I have this really nice thing and I don’t need any money. I just want someone to love it.” I used to host clothing swaps with my friends. That’s actually a really fun way. And then everybody goes home with new clothes, but they don’t spend a dollar. So that’s kind of a fun thing you could do, a toy swap or a book swap or a clothing swap and kind of circulate within your community again.

Jody: That’s good. The other thing I have tried out is I have teenagers now. So sometimes I’m like, “Hey, if you want to list these things online somewhere.” And it’s a little mini job for them and then you make whatever money you make is yours.

Shira: Love it. That’s brilliant. I’m going to put my teenagers to work.

Jody: I mean, if they want some money, here you go.

Shira: So great, yeah, I love that so much. It is, I mean I will see. I live in Berkeley, California, so people are very into sustainability, which is so great. But I will see it being such a stumbling block for people because they’re like, “I just want this to go to the exact right home.” And I’ll be like, “How long has this been by your front door?” And it’ll be five years. And so I’m like, “You know what? It’s just got to be good enough so you can get it out and move on with your life.”

Jody: Yeah, that’s right. And sometimes I just drive it over to Goodwill too, I honestly do get the same pleasure hit. I was telling my sister this, it’s so crazy. The same pleasure hit I get from getting that new thing in the mail I get when I take a car load of stuff over to Goodwill and they just take it out and I drive away. I’m like, “It feels so good.”

Shira: It’s like going to the spa for me. And I’m like, ”Take my donations.” Yeah, it honestly can be a huge rush to clear out your basement or drop off those donation bags that have been taking up space. And then to come home and see open space and know that you’ve dealt with it and it’s free.

Jody: And it’s free and it’s easy. One other trick I just remembered that I’ll share with people is, so I know a lot of my listeners have young kids. And it’s hard because your kids’ stuff is ugly and whatever and they often don’t want to get rid of it, especially their toys. So I know there’s always the, do we just do it when they’re not looking? Odds are they won’t notice, but they may. Could that backfire? What I’ve tried that worked really well with my little kids was I’m like, “Listen.” I just try to explain to them, we don’t have room for all this stuff.

Notice how many stuffed animals you have and you can’t find the one that you want at night to go to bed because it’s lost amongst all the others. And I know you think you want to keep all these, but we really don’t have the room. And I’m trying to explain to them the mindset of why it’s better to downsize. But then also with one of my kids one time he had so much stuff. He didn’t want to let go of any of it. And I finally said, “Wouldn’t you rather just get one cool new toy like a LEGO set or something expensive? For every toy that we donate in this pile, let’s put a dollar towards a new toy.”

And so in the end he ended up with $50, $75. And we went and bought one cool, whatever he got, I don’t remember. It’s a while ago. But I had to get his head around the idea that you’re not losing something here. I mean, you are but it’s so worth it.

Shira: Right. You’re gaining something else. Yeah. I mean, one thing I’ve been, I mainly work with parents. And I say that, “Your job as a parent is to set up clear loving boundaries for your kids. But to give them as much agency as possible over making the decisions within those boundaries.” So an example would be, okay, we only have room for eight bins in the playroom. But you guys get to decide what goes in those bins, how we label the bins, where we store the bins. But that’s all we’ve got so when those are full, that’s it.

And if you want to get new things, we’ve got to find what you want to get rid of, but you get to decide. So I think giving the kids that freedom of choice and even having them, I love to involve kids in the organizing process, because then they just have more buy-in on keeping it organized and keeping it neat, if it’s like, well, I set this up. So I always ask, “What are your favorite things? Where do you want them to be stored? Do you want them here? Do you want them up here? Can you reach them?”

Really making it so that they’re in charge within those boundaries that you set, it can make it more fun and creative instead of this nagging chore.

Jody: And I do think it’s important, and we’re trying to teach them as we raise them, we want them to develop a healthy mindset around stuff and how to keep it clean.

Shira: Yeah. And we want them to learn how to make decisions so that later in life they have that skill of making decisions.

Jody: Yes, love it. And then you just have to look the other way when the stuff that they pick…

Shira: It’s always the [crosstalk] stuff, I know. I would be like, “Wait, you’re getting rid of the beautiful Danish wooden toys and getting the googly eyed monster and the slime.”

Jody: And the Spiderman and The Avengers and the Disney and whatever.

Shira: Yeah, you’ve got to let it go.

Jody: Yeah, I have a daughter, she’s almost eight and she likes to organize. She loves the feeling of, she’ll go, “Mom, come look at my dresser, I’ve cleaned it up.” I mean she does, she gets rid of stuff and she puts stuff away. But then the way she organizes it is questionable, but I just step back and go, “Great job, honey. I love it.”

Shira: Yes, pat on the back for sure.

Jody: Anyway, well, Shira, thank you so much for all of your advice. Tell us about the book, tell us about the new book.

Shira: Yes, okay. So I’m the author of two books. So my first book, which I think I talked about last time, Minimalista, breaks down my whole toolkit and process for editing and organizing and styling your entire home. My new book that’s about to be out is called Organized Living, and it’s so fun because I traveled around the whole world with a photographer. This is so surreal even as I tell you this, and I interviewed 25 home organizing experts and stylists and designers about their actual homes.

And so we snooped around their homes, we took pictures of everything. And basically every chapter is a synopsis of each organizer’s house tour and story and actionable tips for your home. So it’s really fun and inspiring. And my mission in writing this next book was to really show that organizing is for anyone, whether you’re in a tiny studio apartment or a huge, sprawling suburban home. Whether you have kids or don’t have kids, love color, hate color. So there’s really some fun inspiration for everyone.

Jody: Oh my gosh I can’t wait to see it.

Shira: Very fun. There’s one coming your way for sure.

Jody: Okay, I’ll be watching for it. So where can people go to get the book?

Shira: Yeah, anywhere, anywhere books are sold, yeah, online, in your indie bookstore, whatever you like.

Jody: Okay. And if people want just to learn more from you, organization tips, maybe work with you in whatever programs you have going on right now, where should people go to find you?

Shira: Yeah, just head to my website, it’s just my name, Shiragill.com, S-H-I-R-A G-I-L-L .com. And I’ve got a free newsletter with tons of tips and resources. I’ve got online programs, retreats. You can find everything right there.

Jody: Okay, love it. Thank you Shira.

Shira: Yeah, it’s so good to see you. Thank you.

Jody: You too.

                                                                                                                   

Coaching changed my life and I’ve watched it change the lives of thousands of men and women since, but is it right for you? You’ll only know by giving it a try. Try it out today at jodymoore.com/trial.